0:10 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 0:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Today I have Gemma of course, but we also have two new people who are going to be joining us. 0:37 [SPEAKER_01]: We have Wendy and Gray both who are joining us from California. 0:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Wendy and Gray. 0:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi. 0:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, listen, I'm going to share some information that you've been asking about. 0:49 [SPEAKER_03]: So if we do this again, and you would like to be part of the conversation, let's 0:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, an individual in the keepers that everybody has asked about is the student that sister Kathy had in the club mix school called Western High School who spoke to Kathy the afternoon before Kathy disappeared. 1:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Her name is Julie Anna, her holiday spiral. 1:19 [SPEAKER_03]: She and I have become quite good friends because we both agreed politically about 1:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I had a conversation with Julie on a last week and invited her to be our guest and she said she would be happy to share and clarify information about that day and herself, but she would prefer not to actually speak one or recording. 1:44 [SPEAKER_03]: So she wrote me a statement and I'm going to read that. 1:48 [SPEAKER_03]: But the first thing I want to do is clarify a few things for all of you. 1:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Sister Kathy, when she was abducted, was no longer at KEO, she was at Western High School, which is part of a complex in Baltimore City, and it includes Poly High School, which was the school for boys, and Western was the school for girls, although they were both public schools. 2:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Contrary to popular opinion on the series, 2:21 [SPEAKER_03]: She did have a dress code. 2:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I think she told me no pants. 2:25 [SPEAKER_03]: They had to wear dresses or skirts every day, which is actually kind of funny, and the building that you saw in the keepers that when we're talking about Juliana that is the front of Western high school. 2:41 [SPEAKER_03]: The filmmakers were not able to film inside the building, just like Kio, so that part might be like a little bit of Hollywood, but that building there was not Kio it was was so what I'd like to read to you is the information Joliana sent me were this podcast and nobody else, but me as hard this so this will be interesting to get your reactions. 3:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Gemma. 3:06 [SPEAKER_03]: As for our conversation the other day, I am giving you permission to talk about what I told you about my conversation with Sister Kathy Sussnick on November 7, 1969. 3:21 [SPEAKER_03]: First, I would like to clarify that I did not attend TO High School. 3:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I went to Western High School, Holly Western campus. 3:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Kathy Cessnick was my English teacher at the time of her abduction and murder. 3:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I spoke to her after class one that day and she told me that she was going shopping that evening to buy an engagement gift for a family member. 3:50 [SPEAKER_03]: She was excited about this engagement and asked me if I wanted to go along with her shopping. 3:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I was unable to, since I lived on the east side of Baltimore and had no transportation besides the bus to get home. 4:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And I needed to get home and get dinner on the table, so I told her that I couldn't go. 4:13 [SPEAKER_03]: I left to go to my next class. 4:17 [SPEAKER_03]: That night, and everybody this would be the Friday night the Kathy disappeared, that night, I dreamed that she was in a shack somewhere, and a man was pacing back and forth, and she was begging for her life. 4:33 [SPEAKER_03]: One of those dreams that sticks with you, but I didn't at that time know that she was missing. 4:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know until Sunday night on thenaires that would have been November night. 4:48 [SPEAKER_03]: One Monday, the pen, I went to school and right to the office where there were police officers everywhere, and I spoke to a police officer who I can't tell you his name because I don't remember it. 5:12 [SPEAKER_03]: I did speak to her sister in 2017 at the Mass at Woodstock in honor of Kathy. 5:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn just wanted to know how her sister was on that Friday. 5:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I told her that she was just like normal and that she was excited about the engagement. 5:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn asked if she seemed afraid or stressed, I did not see any of that. 5:37 [SPEAKER_03]: She was, as usual, with a big smile and kind words and excited about the engagement. 5:45 [SPEAKER_03]: I hope this helped. 5:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I just didn't think it was important, and didn't think it would be believed as it wasn't believed back in 1969. 5:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So with that, I was shaking my head when Juliana was telling me this and I'm interested in knowing shame what you and gray and when they think about this information. 6:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Juliana was in the keepers, right? 6:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she was. 6:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So she started talking about her. 6:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I realized she was. 6:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I had never heard that, that she was asked to join Kathy to shop that evening. 6:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Me either. 6:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy. 6:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Very crazy. 6:27 [SPEAKER_02]: That shows to me that Kathy was, I don't know if she was afraid, or she wanted someone to go along with her to go shopping because she thought that somebody might have been following her 6:42 [SPEAKER_02]: was the night that Maskel and Magnus came into the apartment. 6:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So it had been less than 24 hours since that happened. 6:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if she was particularly frightened to go shopping by herself, but I think she wanted to have somebody with her just in case, because I truly believe that her life was threatened. 7:01 [SPEAKER_02]: and she didn't take that lightly. 7:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So I definitely am very surprised to hear that she was invited to go shopping with Kathy. 7:12 [SPEAKER_02]: That's shocking. 7:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Was it also a normal thing that people would go shopping like with teachers or 7:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I asked Juliana about that. 7:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, did you think that was odd? 7:22 [SPEAKER_03]: She said, no, not really. 7:23 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I think back to the early days of my own teaching, this is going to sound horrible to people that are listening. 7:31 [SPEAKER_03]: But the kids in our classes here have come to where we live, the bunch of teachers, we've got a bunch of kids to come over. 7:38 [SPEAKER_03]: And we'd have, I don't know, we'd have to book out or something, or we'd have a teacher, would have a whole class kids come, we'd all be in the backyard, 7:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So it wasn't unusual to have more familiarity with your students, so it truly on. 7:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't think it was unusual to be invited to go shopping. 7:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And Grace perception, I think is a good one, but I was wondering, like, if it meant like she she wasn't scared at all, or just, I don't know, I don't know why she would have asked her. 8:09 [SPEAKER_01]: life can get overwhelming and talking to someone can make all the difference. 8:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 8:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and as little as a couple of days. 8:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 8:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 8:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 8:50 [SPEAKER_01]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot, better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 9:00 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign up, and get 10% off your first month. 9:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 9:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Start your journey today. 9:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I wondered whether she just wanted maybe help. 9:17 [SPEAKER_00]: She's in the present when she said it. 9:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to choose an engagement present. 9:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it would be nice to have someone come alone for a second opinion. 9:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Or I don't know. 9:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't see her being that non decisive because she was an extremely, she made very big decisions. 9:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Like one to keep silence about certain things. 9:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so on you. 9:37 [SPEAKER_02]: You understand what I'm saying? 9:38 [SPEAKER_02]: So to me, Kathy knew full well exactly what was going on, but she was not gonna let threat, detour her from going to get an engagement gift for whatever family members. 9:51 [SPEAKER_02]: But she did want to feel like safety and number. 9:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I went to a public school which was co-ed. 9:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So I've never been like to an all-guy school or an all-girl school. 10:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So to me, maybe because you were at an all-girl school and you're with women teachers, you guys would hang out together and stuff like that. 10:09 [SPEAKER_02]: But then never happened in any of the schools that I have ever attended in all of my career. 10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I've never heard of that before, very unusual for England. 10:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what's your perception on this chain? 10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's important because I see the perspective of both Wendy and Gray. 10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: For what Gray is saying, I had the same mindset too while you were talking about it. 10:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that although some in the time frame that were in the 60s and 70s mainly the late 60s for this. 10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But if teachers, if it's socially acceptable for teachers to be out in public with their students, that's one thing. 10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe that's why Juliana didn't think twice if Kathy would have asked. 10:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm more curious, or if this was abnormal behavior for Kathy, so Gemma have you ever heard anyone else talk about them going shopping with Kathy, why they are an active student, because we know of course she has friends who were former students, so she went out and did things with. 11:08 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. 11:09 [SPEAKER_03]: If you remember, a lot of us went to see Kathy on Russell that summer and they had left Kio and we all lived in the area. 11:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I wouldn't think that the girls who went to Western would have lived over in that Kingsville area. 11:22 [SPEAKER_03]: But we went to their apartment and we ate with them and we interviewed, was it Sharon, who said she was best friends with Russell, which I think was the best part of the 11:31 [SPEAKER_03]: But when she talked more about it, it made sense. 11:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Because Russ was a young woman and Sharon didn't have an older sister. 11:40 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not sure if that was that unusual. 11:44 [SPEAKER_03]: But the other comment that Julie on a segment, he was that she said she realizes this happened 50 years ago. 11:50 [SPEAKER_03]: But every time she thinks about it, her memories are exactly that she doesn't. 11:56 [SPEAKER_03]: she is not saying that Kathy was shopping for her sister. 12:02 [SPEAKER_03]: She said, Kathy was shopping for a family member who was going to be married. 12:08 [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing I think is really unusual is that Kathy was okay the next day. 12:13 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I would have been able to go to school if somebody had 12:16 [SPEAKER_03]: threatened me. 12:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I do not think that Kathy was okay. 12:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I really don't. 12:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I truly believe that she was not okay. 12:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the reason why she asked Juliana to go shopping with her. 12:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm that's just my speculation. 12:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you've ever been threatened to be killed. 12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: or like literally to your face or shame or Wendy. 12:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you guys have ever been threatened, but I have been threatened before. 12:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not something that you can shake off lightly. 12:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that she was like literally panic-stricken, but I do believe that she had to get it together. 12:53 [SPEAKER_02]: but I don't believe that she was good on putting on a front. 12:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't she always, I'm not going to say on the stick on your side, but wasn't she always like having health problems? 13:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was always putting on a brave smile through that whole entire thing even though she was in pain. 13:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So to me, she was doing the same exact thing that she was always doing which was self protection and protecting herself. 13:17 [SPEAKER_02]: She was the drama teacher. 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But would you take a child? 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you often take a child with you if he thought you were being threatened? 13:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you not try and find not put a child in danger? 13:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you not try and get an adult go with you? 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: At least, I'm not sure that if I was being threatened, I'd think that taking a child was me was a good idea because they also could then be in danger. 13:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that anything would have happened if she would have had Julianna with her. 13:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We have two scenarios. 13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems one is that she's asking Giuliana to help her pick out. 13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I gift for her family number or two, she's asking Giuliana just for safety reasons, which I agree with you, Wendy that, you know, why would she be asking a student if she feels like she's in danger? 13:56 [SPEAKER_01]: But also I think that there's a just a safety with having an extra person with you. 14:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we've all gone out to our car late at night and most of us hold our keys in a weird angle just in case if we have to shank someone. 14:07 [SPEAKER_01]: with when you have one other person, no matter who they are, younger, old, it could just, oh, no one's gonna try anything because there's a witness, it's just the witness category. 14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But if we're thinking about the presentation that Gray has brought, why wouldn't she have asked us to go with her? 14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Is my question more in the situation that Wendy brings up. 14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she just wanted someone to help her pick out a gift. 14:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, why didn't she ask us to go with her? 14:30 [SPEAKER_01]: because we know Russ was home and Russ stayed home. 14:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Do we know if she ever asked Russ because Russ has never answered that question, that we don't even know if she even asked her. 14:39 [SPEAKER_02]: She might have, but didn't Sharon go over or call Russell that night or something while Kathy was shopping. 14:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Russ called, okay, Sharon went over before dinner and then went home and then Russ called Sharon at about 10 o'clock to see if she had seen Kathy. 14:58 [SPEAKER_03]: But something you just said, Shane made me think maybe because we know Russell had been in the apartment the night before they were best threatened and maybe she was trying to keep Russell in other words, like you said, if Juliana was with her perhaps nothing would have happened if Russell was with her. 15:20 [SPEAKER_03]: something could have happened to both of them at the same time. 15:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I think so because I personally believe, I know this is a little bit much, but there had to have been some sort of weapon or gun, or had to have been taken out and shown to them and that apartment. 15:37 [SPEAKER_02]: That's because if Maskel is doing the threatening which I'm sure he was the one that was actually doing the actual threatening and set up 15:49 [SPEAKER_03]: He had guns all the time. 15:50 [SPEAKER_03]: He was a padded gun when the altar, when he was saying masks, you know, what? 15:54 [SPEAKER_03]: One thing. 15:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he kept it gun up when the altar under one of the altar clogged. 16:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was general knowledge. 16:01 [SPEAKER_00]: They was there. 16:02 [SPEAKER_03]: People know about it. 16:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, I never saw it. 16:05 [SPEAKER_03]: But I guess he showed the girls in his office, but the other thing I was thinking about, and this was the first thing that occurred to me was that this now takes care of the theory that perhaps, 16:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Or, do you know, somebody brought up the idea? 16:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe he said, let's go have coffee and talk about this. 16:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Never, never. 16:30 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, but that's come up. 16:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe she was going somewhere to meet with him. 16:35 [SPEAKER_02]: She would never have done that. 16:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Why not? 16:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I think she would have because after the fact that he threatened to hurt and then said, let's go meet for coffee. 16:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that would have never have happened. 16:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Never. 16:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Kathy. 16:46 [SPEAKER_02]: was not stupid. 16:48 [SPEAKER_02]: She was a little naive and in certain respects, and obviously when these ladies started coming to her and telling them then they were abused, her whole entire world change. 16:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So she had to start looking at things from a different perspective. 17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And so Magnus and people on the fours and Masswell, all of these people started to become enemies to her. 17:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And she never knew about enemies and stuff like that. 17:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you can see that in the letter 17:15 [SPEAKER_02]: for her resignation to the sisterhood or whatever that didn't see her emotion in that regarding things that she just this is not what I signed up for. 17:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't sign up to cover up for the Catholic church and blah blah blah blah and yeah so you can see it all right there. 17:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe that she would have never have done that. 17:32 [SPEAKER_02]: That's going to have coffee with Satan. 17:34 [SPEAKER_02]: She would have never have done that. 17:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Also to back up for Gray is saying we do know that she did feel in danger. 17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: because she told her parents that she was more in danger to stay a kid than if she were to be teaching in a public school. 17:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But think looking at what Juliana has said, I firmly believe that the scene that she was taken at is when she pulled back into a parking spot. 17:57 [SPEAKER_01]: and I believe in my mind that someone then forced themselves into the car probably with a gun. 18:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So regardless if Juliana was with her or not, I think that scenario would have still played out and likely Juliana would have been a victim as well. 18:13 [SPEAKER_01]: You do believe that would have happened if Giuliana was there. 18:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I do because by the time she gets back to the apartment, it probably would have been dark. 18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that the person was so determined that this is the moment. 18:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you know what, you just reminded me of something and I'm sorry for interrupts you. 18:29 [SPEAKER_02]: What did that reminded me of just basically if Giuliana would have gone with Kathy, that means that 18:34 [SPEAKER_02]: He wouldn't have had to go on to the other side of town to pick her up and Gemma you know how long that would have taken and then she would have had to go back to this place to go shopping, which is right here, we're Kathy and them live and then she would have had to drive for all the way back over there, so right time that's a lot of time to me, yeah, just fill in there waiting at the apartment waiting to stumble upon them. 18:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So with Juliana was there. 18:58 [SPEAKER_02]: She would have never been attacked if she was attacked while shopping. 19:02 [SPEAKER_02]: That's basically what I was referencing now because she would have been dropped off before she ever got home. 19:08 [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing I asked Juliana was whether or not she was driving because Kathy may not have known if Juliana had her license and a car or not. 19:17 [SPEAKER_03]: So like I wouldn't know if my student did. 19:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Kathy may if Juliana had said yes, 19:27 [SPEAKER_03]: and they could have had met up there. 19:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you know what, that kind of makes sense because then Juliana would never have been in Kathy's car and they could have been in public shopping and nobody would touch them there, right? 19:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And they could have gotten back in their own individual cars and gone home. 19:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So Kathy was a planner. 19:47 [SPEAKER_03]: He may have fought that through and never even thought about that. 19:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm wish she'd drive me think to Julie and I say she will 19:54 [SPEAKER_03]: No, she didn't have her license at that time and she didn't have a car, but I don't know the Kathy would have known that. 20:00 [SPEAKER_03]: She said, everybody loved Kathy so much. 20:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And Kathy was a little Juliana said she suspected Kathy was a nun because she dressed so conservatively and she wasn't married, but we're a bold ring owner left hand. 20:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And she said she just entered head thought I have a ceiling. 20:19 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a sister or this was a sister. 20:21 [SPEAKER_03]: She said they were all like 20:23 [SPEAKER_03]: to chat about things, a girl talk, and she said it was very common for students to congregate around Kathy, which doesn't surprise me. 20:33 [SPEAKER_02]: You guys are still talking about her like 50 years later, so she obviously has like a major impact on a lot of people's lives. 20:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And you're now too, right? 20:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Not a woman, absolutely. 20:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking about her. 20:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know anything about this. 20:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I live in California. 20:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I woke up when being was like, let's watch something on Netflix. 20:49 [SPEAKER_02]: What is this? 20:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. 20:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Life from England. 20:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd definitely never have to say a screen. 20:55 [SPEAKER_03]: There's more about the story than I do. 20:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like it. 21:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as I have the time invested in this person. 21:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I have the person on when you go through traumatic things in your life, you can identify with other people and at certain times in your life, you're not ready to identify with people. 21:13 [SPEAKER_02]: So all the sudden when something comes knocking on your door, like this unexpectedly, and you're like, well, wait a minute, and it makes you take a look at things, and then you start seeing things from multiple perspectives. 21:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's incredible, really, it's helped me by my time. 21:29 [SPEAKER_02]: but it's an incredible story, incredible. 21:31 [SPEAKER_03]: I hope that the listeners are going to try and with their ideas, I think we've presented like a number of different theories. 21:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm intrigued by the dreams she had. 21:42 [SPEAKER_00]: She ever had like other dreams that are similar to that because I have experiences of this. 21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm intrigued that she had this dream and that the place rolled their eyes because I 21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a similar experience when my aunt was murdered, but actually they took a statement from me. 21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: But then, of course, this is 50 years old. 21:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I just wondered if she'd had other similar dreams where she'd had dread something happened and then something did happen or she did not. 22:06 [SPEAKER_03]: But she told me that because she would have been having the dream at the very moment. 22:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And Kathy was probably being murdered. 22:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 22:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Is what we're so upsetting for her when she got 22:18 [SPEAKER_03]: when she saw the news on Sunday. 22:20 [SPEAKER_03]: She said it was a feeling of very surreal and when she got to school, she didn't even go to class. 22:27 [SPEAKER_03]: She went directly to the office. 22:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And she felt like it was important that she told them. 22:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Also, a share with me by phone, that she could see the man's pants and shoes that was pacing and that they were black, like formal pants and black shoes. 22:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And to her, that represented a priest. 22:47 [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to make a promise you say in the other thing that she was not aware of is that Edgar Davidson was a balancer on the block in Baltimore, which is like a script neighborhood. 23:01 [SPEAKER_03]: And he would wear black pants and black shoes. 23:08 [SPEAKER_03]: He was involved in a lot of stuff, but he told his wife he worked in a bowling alley. 23:12 [SPEAKER_03]: He didn't tell out, 23:15 [SPEAKER_03]: black shoes and a white shirt every night, the same outfit. 23:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Why did he lie to his wife about where he was? 23:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I guess because he was working in strip joints and doing a lot of illegal stuff down there when Edgar Davidson came home that evening with a bloody shirt. 23:32 [SPEAKER_02]: His wife at that time or his wife at the time thought that he was working at a bowling alley, but he was actually a balancer at a strip club. 23:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 23:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 23:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 23:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I've always wondered where he was working because we done that Billy's brother or right, the one I also came home with the blood on the shirt. 23:51 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that he worked for the family business, but I just wasn't sure where Edgar was coming from work. 23:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So supposedly it was a bowling alley, but it was. 23:58 [SPEAKER_03]: not really it was he knew he worked overnight and I don't think she was suspicious and if she's listening to this I hope she'll correct anything I'm saying that's incorrect but it's my understanding that he said he worked in a bowling alley and that he had to dress the same way like that was the uniform but it was also the way he would dress if he was going down and the black is like 24:20 [SPEAKER_03]: probably two or three blocks in downtown Baltimore. 24:24 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all stripped pipes and a lot of illegal stuff went on, including girls from Kia, being prostituted down there. 24:32 [SPEAKER_03]: So we know that Edgar, 24:36 [SPEAKER_03]: was involved in a lot of the enforce here. 24:39 [SPEAKER_03]: If I think he was deeply involved in what ever maskable was doing down there with the girls. 24:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so she could have been. 24:47 [SPEAKER_03]: But now we're assuming that the dream is reality. 24:50 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like it is, but it is. 24:53 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's not like she actually saw it happen. 24:55 [SPEAKER_03]: She saw it not ringing. 24:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So I changed way though, Gemma, she did see it because she actually physically remembered detail, I think, remember, dream, I'm only specific dreams. 25:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you remember that we're 50 years old? 25:07 [SPEAKER_02]: She remembers this for a reason because it was imprinted into our mind for some bizarre, strange, unknown reason. 25:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's unbelievable. 25:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've had dreams like that in similar circumstances where so I genuinely believe that she dreamt that she dreamt it and it was, 25:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Wendy, were you as like premonitions? 25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: My aunt was murdered like 11 years ago and thought that my her ex-husband had done it. 25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And then my aunt came to me and my dreams one night. 25:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like she was sat in my bedroom and she said to me, he didn't do it. 25:37 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a short stalkie man with dark hair. 25:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So I told the police this and they were quite interested. 25:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And then a few weeks later they came to me and said, 25:45 [SPEAKER_00]: We've actually rested someone else now and he's a short-stocking man with dark hair. 25:48 [SPEAKER_00]: How did you know? 25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And my ex-uncle had actually paid a hitman who was a short-stocking man with dark hair to do the actual he's hit. 25:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they said to me, then, hold on. 25:57 [SPEAKER_00]: How did you know all this eight weeks ago? 25:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I told you, she was in my bedroom, I wake up in the night, she was there and they were just like, this is surreal. 26:05 [SPEAKER_00]: If I could describe him, I described what she was wearing everything. 26:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It was so real. 26:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And to me, it was real. 26:10 [SPEAKER_00]: To me, it was he's not involved. 26:12 [SPEAKER_00]: He just didn't actually murder her, but somehow he is involved. 26:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how, but this other guy did the actual murder. 26:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when they found out that he paid a hitman and the description of the hitman was the description I'd given them. 26:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I genuinely believe everything she says because it's happened to me on more than one occasion. 26:27 [SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible. 26:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I also dreamt my granddad died and I wake up and my granddad died so my god and it'll be for each out by me sometimes. 26:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, my mom once said if you ever dream like, I please don't tell me. 26:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I really intrigued when people say things like this because I think it happens to other people then. 26:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So I believe it. 26:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I do this one happens more often. 26:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It's themes and people. 26:56 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people don't want to come forward and say, Oh, I can have this and this happening. 27:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Because people look at you. 27:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like they're crazy. 27:03 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? 27:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So that being said, sometimes people like to keep these things to themselves. 27:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And I tell everybody. 27:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't let anybody try to detour you from living your life in the best light, and if those things are in your life, I don't think they're bad. 27:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So express them and let people know because it's so helpful. 27:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You never know what information you can get from this seriously. 27:25 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really believe that. 27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I also think that Juliana going to the police office for telling him 27:32 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, what her dream was. 27:33 [SPEAKER_01]: If I had a dream like that, I would probably think that's often just going to think I'm nuts. 27:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But good for her, for her, though caring for her teacher, that she wanted to make sure that she told him the dream that she had, that she mentioned ever being questioned by police. 27:47 [SPEAKER_03]: After that, she did not. 27:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Bye. 27:49 [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that she was so upset when she heard, can you imagine, like Wendy just said, you have a dream that somebody is saying don't, what was she saying? 27:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't hurt me or don't tell me. 28:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And then you find out that person is born. 28:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, animal. 28:06 [SPEAKER_03]: you go to school the next day and there's police everywhere. 28:10 [SPEAKER_03]: She said it was so bizarre that she couldn't wait to tell them what she had dreamed, but that they, and I guess it's typical for those days for an officer to realize this is a building full of women, and I don't mean that 28:27 [SPEAKER_03]: to be sexist, but that's probably the opinion they had going to be hysteria when we got there. 28:33 [SPEAKER_03]: You didn't have counselors, brief counselors, and everybody's going to be all bent out of shape. 28:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And here she is saying I dreamt it, and it was happening at the moment that it was happening. 28:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think even now, you would get that reaction from a lot of police officers. 28:48 [SPEAKER_00]: If you said it now, I was lucky and that the police officers at my house had been there because everyone was at my house, like a couple of weeks when I came down and said, oh, so like this happened last night, and they kind of made me a bit, so I knew I wasn't completely crazy. 29:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they were genuinely just quite interested as to why I would, you know, 29:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Why would bring it up and tell them and they said they get it a lot and they're trying to take more notice when people say these things, but I think still even now a lot of police would still say roll their eyes at you probably. 29:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Was this in England when did you listen to in England? 29:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I think people give more consideration to things like that. 29:25 [SPEAKER_03]: in the United Kingdom. 29:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about all that, then you United States. 29:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, you know what? 29:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I'm would be ignorant because I'm not from the UK, but I'm just because I try to study a lot of the psychic kind of stuff and see what's going on. 29:38 [SPEAKER_02]: It just seems like a lot of stuff based in the United States like North America. 29:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know about European psychics like they're called gypsies or something. 29:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I have no idea. 29:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So like to hear or and I don't mean to be offensive. 29:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't 29:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Like Long Island medium and the guy that with his name he comes through from the other side. 29:59 [SPEAKER_03]: No, another that was going on back then. 30:01 [SPEAKER_03]: So none of that was going on in the United States. 30:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Not like it is now. 30:05 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a whole town in Massachusetts somewhere that's the psychics. 30:11 [SPEAKER_03]: You go in from one building to the next. 30:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the cops here just seem more sustainable of that the cops of that I'm in California. 30:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So our cops are cool. 30:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I'm not respect because they have things different everything's different where you are. 30:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I use something great. 30:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really, I'm not really as psychic because I don't like to put labels on myself. 30:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, labels are too much of a stark definition and I can't be labeled like that. 30:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So I just. 30:39 [SPEAKER_02]: things come to me and either write them down or have to stay them out loud or make song out of it or whatever the deal is. 30:46 [SPEAKER_02]: But they're like little movies that happened inside of my mind with silly, but I can feel, I can almost smell too. 30:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very bizarre and like 95% of the time they're correct. 30:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And then sometimes I get this weird stuff and I'm just like, where the heck did this come from? 31:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean, but guess it just has to do with who's susceptible and who wants to hear and who doesn't want to hear because once people can't get past those blocks, but I definitely believe that because of there's so much spirituality and so much faith and all that stuff regarding in this case, that's why I have such strong feelings about it in that psychic type of a way that's all I can explain to I feel like I was literally called. 31:29 [SPEAKER_02]: to watch the series. 31:30 [SPEAKER_02]: If that makes any type of sense, I really believe that, truly. 31:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I, you guys, I don't watch any of this kind of stuff. 31:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even have Netflix. 31:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I watched Harry Potter and Lord of the Green, then Star Wars and all that kind of stuff. 31:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And then for me to go from that to this, shocked me. 31:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So I believe that Sister Kathy is literally calling out to these heaps because she wants her killer names. 31:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And me. 31:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I have to tell you guys that Brae has also given me a whole bunch of information from just his intuition 31:59 [SPEAKER_03]: is like accurate that there was no way he would have known. 32:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Like people's names. 32:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and now they'll write down or text me a name and say, does this mean anything to you? 32:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll be like, oh, I'm feeling yes. 32:12 [SPEAKER_03]: So it keeps happening. 32:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd like to also add that where gray is, then of course, now windy in California. 32:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I do believe that most people who say they are psychic detectives live in California. 32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if it's the water you're going to be drinking over there, but I do think that it is much more widely accepted, especially from law enforcement. 32:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in Indiana and we had an infamous double homicide that many people know as the 32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know for a fact speaking to the officers who originally were in charge of the case, that after it happened so much media flocked around it and they had like thousands of psychics writing and calling in and they did not take any of them seriously. 33:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that's the case for almost 33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: mentions anything to do with a dream or voice or anything like that for Indiana. 33:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So I do think that most of the cases that it's more widely accepted are in California. 33:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to bring up something that I think is more troubling from what we've been talking about is the fact that they didn't question Julia on her. 33:38 [SPEAKER_01]: The police didn't because here we have a student who 33:43 [SPEAKER_01]: The force you left don't worry why that didn't happen. 33:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we know the police were likely involved. 33:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It likely didn't really want to find the answers to these questions. 33:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's very troubling to me that when Julia and I went up to the detective talking about this dream that he didn't inquire more. 34:01 [SPEAKER_01]: When was a lot of time you spoke to Kathy? 34:04 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like this these questions like I feel like they should have questioned the students. 34:09 [SPEAKER_01]: walked in to her classroom and anyone that could have spoken to her that day, just a smallest detail could have been important. 34:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, now she's working on her memory from 50 years ago. 34:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I really wish those detectives back them would have questioned her because if they're not questioning her I just feel like they're not questioning a lot of people and that makes me lose my faith in them, which we know we probably should because many of them were involved in this and Jim and I believe you do have to remember that this was 50 years ago and that everybody was involved in it. 34:44 [SPEAKER_02]: everybody. 34:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So they literally did not care. 34:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody had the ball in their hand. 34:49 [SPEAKER_02]: They all were dropping the ball on purpose because it was a covert operation, posing as a Catholic parish, and they didn't give a care about any of it. 35:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And they threw all caution to the wind, they completely shredded that murder investigation. 35:18 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
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