0:10 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 0:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Gemma and I have two special guests today. 0:33 [SPEAKER_00]: We have Gene Wainer and Dr. Ellen Lachter. 0:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So everyone remembers Gene. 0:39 [SPEAKER_00]: She was, of course, in the keepers. 0:41 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll remember her as Jane Doe during the 90s trial. 0:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Jane, you always, I feel like you don't really need an introduction. 0:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Gene is aware that the topic we are about to discuss is difficult to hear. 0:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So she warns that conversation you are about to listen to. 0:56 [SPEAKER_00]: is painfully raw and can't help but be upsetting, especially if you are a survivor. 1:02 [SPEAKER_00]: However, it is necessary to talk about such things in order for us to separate victim from a user, so we can see how systematically premeditated Moscow. 1:12 [SPEAKER_00]: and other perpetrators are, and their efforts to make their victims believe that they are solely responsible for what happened to them, knowing how triggering it is for her just to talk about what the abusers made her do feel and think. 1:26 [SPEAKER_00]: She recommends that survivors have their therapists or close supporters, listen to this three-part interview before or with them. 1:34 [SPEAKER_00]: as always, don't feel that you need to listen. 1:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But to you, Dr. L actor, you're probably new to most listeners. 1:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So can you tell me who are you and what it is you do? 1:45 [SPEAKER_02]: On the psychologist who started as an art therapist back in the 70s and then I think 82 and marriage family therapist 1:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Started working with abuse children with our therapy and later play therapy and that took me into the world of working with children who had been subjected to extreme abuse, including ritual abuse and other kinds of sadistic abuse or production of child rape materials, etc. 2:14 [SPEAKER_02]: then through that I connected with people who were working with adult survivors of ritual abuse and learned more about what that is and because almost everybody's subjected to ritual abuse has dissociative identity disorder. 2:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I learned beginning in about 1986 about dissociative identity disorder and then learned a lot about it. 2:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So 2:40 [SPEAKER_02]: long learning curve to understand it. 2:43 [SPEAKER_02]: But I have and ritual abuse is also very hard to understand because it's so evil and calculated and so secret, but I feel like I've got a reasonable understanding, which is a lot to have because it is so hard to. 2:56 [SPEAKER_02]: get information on it and I've published things about it to speak about it at conferences and I'm an activist against extreme abuse and a lot of therapists come to me for help information, guidance and I just try to do whatever I can to wake the world up to some of the horrible things that are happening, including the kinds of abuse that the keepers shows happens. 3:21 [SPEAKER_02]: cover up and all of the terrible things that happen with abuse or networks that have power and that are placed in critical positions in society in order to continue to cover up their crimes. 3:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So, very interested in all of that and in trying to get both the mental health community, the public at large, and survivors also to know more about it for survivors to be able to trust 3:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I've had people contact me through my website. 3:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's another thing I do. 3:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a website and ritualabuse.org. 3:56 [SPEAKER_02]: That's where it is. 3:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And the ritualabuse.org. 3:59 [SPEAKER_02]: People contact me and they said, you know, I started having memories. 4:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I read about false memory syndrome, which is not a real syndrome. 4:06 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a propaganda, artifact of a propaganda campaign. 4:09 [SPEAKER_02]: But they say, I read about false memory syndrome. 4:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought that all of my memories were false memories. 4:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I sound your website. 4:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And everything you're describing is what I've been through and thank you so much because now I realize that I need to trust myself and not people who are saying the abuse memories are false. 4:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to help survivors and I'm trying to help therapists and I'm trying to help the public and any law enforcement anybody that I can not just me a lot of other people are doing this a lot of other people who are fighting against extreme abuse. 4:42 [SPEAKER_02]: within the therapeutic community and some within law enforcement and some a lot of survivors in a lot of grassroots efforts like the like in the keepers. 4:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So all of us together are trying to make people realize and put more pressure on the authorities that be to really investigate properly and to have more better staffing and more funding in law enforcement and child protection to not let 5:11 [SPEAKER_00]: you touched on this a little bit ago, but how did you develop such an expertise in extreme abuse and dissociative disorders? 5:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Most of us who do this work have been working with child abuse for a while. 5:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Any therapist, as far as I'm concerned, is worth their salt, knows about child abuse, because I believe that most mental disorders are actually the results. 5:34 [SPEAKER_02]: of trauma of one kind or another. 5:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Therapist is really going to listen to their clients is going to figure out that trauma of one kind or another has caused their clients depression or anxiety or a chlorophyll, which in my opinion is usually fear of people not fear of open spaces and it's based in trauma. 5:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And all kinds of problems that people are eating disorders, addictions, almost everything, I believe is 6:00 [SPEAKER_02]: ridden trauma. 6:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So people who started to work with that for a while, eventually end up with a case where they start realizing that the person is presenting as different, very different ways of being a cross sessions or even within sessions, or maybe they'll get an email from somebody saying, I'm so, and you don't know me yet, but, and it's from another quote-unquote personality identity, then the person starts going, oh my gosh, I wonder if this person has associated identities. 6:30 [SPEAKER_02]: significant abuse of these other aspects of themselves are reporting things to me that this other part of themselves doesn't know about what's going on here and then usually those people start reading and seeking consultation, they join listservs like the disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed, 6:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how I started my mind was a child case and it's like, oh my gosh, what is this? 6:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I sought consultation from peers. 7:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I found a group of peers who knew about ritual abuse and started meeting with them. 7:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Every member of it was every other week or every week or whatever it was. 7:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people can't find a group like that so they just find a therapist to consult with and then they take training workshops and I think that every decade we're getting substantially more knowledgeable about dissociative disorders, dissociative identity disorder amnesia for abuse. 7:29 [SPEAKER_02]: recovering memories later, et cetera, and it's becoming a lot more accepted, a lot more something that people know is somewhat common, not rare as people were taught saying the 1970s and 1980s, starting in the 1980s, people started realizing, wait a second, we're seeing a lot more of this than we thought, and now we know that it's a pretty common psychological response to trauma. 7:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So I learned, like most people did, getting thrown into the deep end of the pool at least with a solid trauma back room. 8:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But the deep end of the pool is far as dissociation, dissociative identity disorder and ritual abuse and having to go, wow, what is this and learning and then, you know, you learn more and then you start talking to people and you present what you've learned and then other people learn about you and you end up getting more cases and then. 8:21 [SPEAKER_02]: You also end up noticing some of the people who you might not have realized before had dissociated identities or had extreme abuse. 8:31 [SPEAKER_02]: You start seeing the signs of it and you start learning how to ask the right questions and low and behold, you find out that other people on your case look maybe from before have these issues or you start identifying them quickly when they come into you and all that 8:49 [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's the kind of normal learning curve for most people to get into this work. 8:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Lyctor, what is extreme? 8:56 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good question. 8:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Because none of these terms have exact meanings where you can say it's definitely this and it's definitely not that they're usually descriptors that have overlap with other things. 9:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Like where is the line between what is normal abuse that's a ridiculous 9:14 [SPEAKER_02]: phrase that doesn't make sense. 9:16 [SPEAKER_02]: There is no such thing as an oil abuse, but extreme abuse would be torture, maybe network abuse, or there's an abuser network, maybe very calculated. 9:29 [SPEAKER_02]: abuse where it's planned and efforts to cause the victims to never, ever tell anybody and to perhaps even not remember what happened. 9:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So deliberate attempts to manipulate the mind to not maintain unconsciousness, the memory of what happened. 9:51 [SPEAKER_02]: that would usually, most people would call that extreme abuse, abuse by very powerful parties in society and a lot of ability to intimidate, I think, most people would call ritual abuse, extreme abuse. 10:06 [SPEAKER_02]: What all clergy abuse count as extreme abuse I wouldn't say necessarily it's a gradient if you've got a solo abuser and he's not horribly violent and it doesn't go on in a prolonged way that might not be considered extreme, but if you have a sadistic abuser and. 10:24 [SPEAKER_02]: you're using threats to harm the person's family. 10:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And especially if you're using torture or some of the things in the keepers, you would definitely call extreme abuse if you take a child to murder victim and says this is what happens when people talk, and that's extreme abuse. 10:44 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 10:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 10:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed 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sometimes people may say, oh, there must be a normal type of abuse. 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of the line between talking about someone who has been murdered and someone who was tortured. 12:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's how I made that make sense of my head. 12:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that helps anyone else. 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But another question that I wanted to ask you 12:20 [SPEAKER_00]: of ritual abuse and does it always imply satanic worship? 12:25 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people have very different definitions for what is ritual abuse. 12:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people would include clergy abuse that may have used rituals like some of the horrible things talked about in the keepers if the priest 12:44 [SPEAKER_02]: does something using religious paraphernalia, drinking something from a cup or does certain things, you know, to the body that would be drawn from Catholicism, but they're doing it instead with Simon or all of these kinds of and God is authorizing this because you're a sinner because it's you got molested as a child which is biggest absurdity I've ever used in the authority of God or the church. 13:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people would call that 13:11 [SPEAKER_02]: ritualistic because it involves ritual and it involves the attribution of power to some deity or claiming that it's the will of some deity or that's allowing this or that they've been given the authority or they're acting in the service of or some people would call that ritual abuse. 13:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Others would say, they would say ritual abuse would usually involve the worship of a malevolent deity, like Satan or he gods goddesses, Egyptian, Druid, Nordic, wherever, African, South American, Mayan. 13:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not invested in a particular definition. 13:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm more interested in each person's account in their memories and what's traumatized them. 13:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people would 13:58 [SPEAKER_02]: say that ritual abuse is abused done by perpetrators who understand how to manipulate the dissociative responses of the victims. 14:12 [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, let's say an abuser takes a child to a barn and does some horrible abuse to the child and terrorizes the child and then says, when you're here, 14:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, when you go home, your name is Susie. 14:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And the child is so terrified of this person that's okay, I'm Bonnie when I'm here and I'm Susie when I'm home. 14:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the perpetrator says it, and when your home Susie does not remember anything that happened here. 14:45 [SPEAKER_02]: But when you come here, Bonnie comes here and Susie does not know what's happening here. 14:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So that would be, 14:53 [SPEAKER_02]: an abuser who's actually trying to induce dissociated parts of the psyche in order to protect themselves so that the child will not disclose to any loving caregivers or any protective teachers or anybody, you know, who you might be able to otherwise tell. 15:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a deliberate manipulation of dissociated identities. 15:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And even in that case, 15:20 [SPEAKER_02]: of the formation of dissociated identity. 15:24 [SPEAKER_02]: So some people claim that ritual abuse is abused by abusers who know how to manipulate those dissociative responses that naturally happen in states of terror or in credible humiliation. 15:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So let's say another example, maybe more simple, more general, more common, would be inherent to molest the child in the middle of the night. 15:46 [SPEAKER_02]: and the forces the child to have a sexual response. 15:51 [SPEAKER_02]: This is our secret, et cetera. 15:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the child wakes up in the morning, and at first pretends it didn't happen. 15:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And now they're able to go to school and study and have friends, and not have to think about this. 16:08 [SPEAKER_02]: overwhelming, brightening and many ways experienced, brightening because they were, this was done to them against their will, brightening because they had feelings, they didn't understand et cetera, sexual responses are very brightening to children, especially when they're first imposed on them, they're very scared. 16:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they also, maybe old enough to know that I shouldn't be doing this, this is wrong. 16:32 [SPEAKER_02]: This is morally wrong so no, there's tremendous shame and all of that causes the child to dissociate it and 16:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually, the child forms distinct personalities, the one who hears the abuse are coming down the whole walking in the room and who takes the sexual abuse and then goes to sleep and then another aspect of the personality who awakens and has no idea that it happened. 16:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe the abuse or would realize that it's happening and 17:03 [SPEAKER_02]: and do little things to reinforce it. 17:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So now you know that you're not going to tell daytime Mary, what happened tonight, or I'm going to call you such and such when you're here, your name is such and such. 17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: So that would be where the case in which the child naturally formed dissociated identities, and then the abuser further manipulated it to ensure that the child wouldn't till, 17:30 [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe would be able to continue functioning and would continue to allow access. 17:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Rachel says a lot of definite. 17:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And for the purpose of academics and everything, it's good to try to come up with definitions, but for the purposes of actually working with an individual, it's much more important to create a paragraph in your mind or with the person. 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what the kind of thing you were subjected to, and then to work with that. 17:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I had already as a younger child in dissociating. 18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when we're going to my uncle being down there versus being at home, I think that part of what mask will plug into was the fact, and why I might have been more palpable or more viable, and why I'm actually placed alive. 18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that I was already differentiating and so part of what I did find is exactly what you're saying, but I think with this psychological background, what he was doing was he was feeding it. 18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of it being something that with my own personal property mechanism, it goes right along with what you're saying. 18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that what he was doing was creating a bigger gap. 18:46 [SPEAKER_01]: He was creating a more intense separation because he understood. 18:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, when he used the vibrator for the first time, and I, 18:59 [SPEAKER_01]: had an orgasm. 19:01 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that was so devastating was I had no idea. 19:08 [SPEAKER_01]: what just happened. 19:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for him today, it was the Eve when me coming out. 19:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I left he said, you hate it that and I'm glad. 19:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I believe that what you're saying is 100% one target. 19:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And I also think that there are people who have that psychological knowledge and you that in order to create a bigger gap in a bigger separation. 19:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 19:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's just so cruel. 19:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, kid would have no way of understanding that response. 19:41 [SPEAKER_02]: A kid doesn't even understand sexual arousal. 19:44 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't naturally figure out any African sexual arousal until 19:50 [SPEAKER_02]: significantly later, little kids get crushes, but they're not genital in my opinion, they're more heart-based, they feel in love, the fairy tale, the genitals of nothing to do with it. 20:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You take a child and you push them into a sexual response, which can be done. 20:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they discover it normally. 20:08 [SPEAKER_02]: without somebody doing something to them or showing them pornography or something like that. 20:13 [SPEAKER_02]: But you can induce that in a child. 20:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it makes total sense. 20:17 [SPEAKER_02]: You would have that kind of reaction, but would terrify you and then he could name it whatever he wanted. 20:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And because you had no other framework to understand it, you would believe him, yes, all the authority of the priesthood behind him. 20:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And he sounds like a very manipulative, 20:37 [SPEAKER_02]: terrifying person. 20:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So that in itself will widen the gap between the part who has to function in your normal life and the part who experiences the terror because just you just can't maintain an awareness of that level of fear, life through it, humiliation, helplessness, heartbreak, 21:05 [SPEAKER_02]: with that in your business. 21:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you're saying that he also deliberately widened the gap. 21:12 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how you have affirmed me. 21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: My therapist, too, too. 21:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Please don't get me wrong. 21:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But when there were things that you as someone who's worked with, more of that population, you can hear from a therapist. 21:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like hearing it from your mother sometimes. 21:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, they're the party that's still saying, OK, yeah, sure. 21:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was still good to have a come from a different direction to the whole because for me. 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I always felt that I was doing a natural repression of memory. 21:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I was dissociating and I do feel from the 27 years of work on this. 21:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That it was truly my coping mechanism that was intact when I went in that 22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: and what you brought to the table was separate from those who I worked with all the time. 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: An expert coming in saying, yes, yes, he took things that my uncle had done in the past and he replayed it in the room. 22:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And to me that felt very much as the observer being the adult 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It felt as if he were deliberately touching into a part of me that had already experienced something. 22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: A health which made it feel like I deserved it or that I was participating. 22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: The same way, with a glibrator or with the orgasm, I didn't have that with my uncle. 22:47 [SPEAKER_01]: This was different. 22:49 [SPEAKER_01]: My uncle, it was a lot of other creepy things, but this was truly connected to what I went into confessional, which was forgiveness. 23:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And he then what it was that would weigh me in 100% create more of a bit, which was this shows how evil you are. 23:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is why God can't forgive you. 23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, an internal conflict to create it was, so in ten, that started really, I think, the point of rare locking that out because I couldn't deny that had come for me, that my response had come for me. 23:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't deny it. 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, there was something that he did with 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a different tool than technique in order to really make it even more intense and more worse and more separate. 23:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, yeah, the whole thing planned. 23:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah. 23:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He has the vibrator there. 23:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He knows what happened to you. 23:58 [SPEAKER_02]: That's why he targets you. 23:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's okay. 24:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I've got a kid who I can exploit. 24:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Who already feels bad about herself. 24:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And there I can use that. 24:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And then he has the, but he brings a little vibrator. 24:10 [SPEAKER_02]: He brings it there with the intervention of inducing a sexual response. 24:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me that he wanted me to start participating, that I wasn't participating in my counseling, that he needed me to start participating if anything was going to go towards the direction that he was hoping for. 24:28 [SPEAKER_01]: That God could forgive me. 24:30 [SPEAKER_01]: At the beginning of that was all it focused on that. 24:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to participate. 24:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I was holding back. 24:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god. 24:37 [SPEAKER_02]: That is so devious. 24:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And you would have no way first you believe him. 24:43 [SPEAKER_02]: He's he's a I want to see a representative of God. 24:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really understand They are even today now people like to say well it's so different but the priest all 24:53 [SPEAKER_01]: are the go between the light that can do it, they're the channel, they're the vessel, so like when the red and wine become body and blood is through the grace that's it has, which is truly representative of God, the frame with the sacrament of the confessional going into there that what that priest was to do for me was to be the connection to God for giving me. 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: These are very, very deeply taught, very deep within our faith. 25:25 [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't something that is, you'll have to be renewed, you have quite on quote, I believe it. 25:30 [SPEAKER_01]: We were taught, these are the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, and they are pleased, they can minister them. 25:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it is not, it's, and it still is. 25:43 [SPEAKER_01]: There can be a U.C. 25:46 [SPEAKER_01]: gift given, but I guarantee you I haven't been a part of the church for a long time, but it is the police who has consecrated it before it goes out with the U.C. 25:57 [SPEAKER_01]: ministers who may be female. 25:59 [SPEAKER_01]: If that is changed, I will say a shame next time I was wrong. 26:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just trying to grasp all of this that the whole thing planned and the end point is then to say that this is evil inside of you and then at the end point Dr. 26:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Latter was which ultimately happened. 26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he wanted me to do exactly what he wanted, the way he wanted when I was in the room. 26:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And so he got to point where all he had to do is walk towards the door that had the vibrator in it. 26:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would stop being afraid. 26:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I would stop looking like I wanted to leave. 26:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I would do. 26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I would smile like he told me. 26:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would do just because I thought that instrument showed my evilness. 26:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't want anyone else to see it. 26:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So he knew that now to me, that's ritualistic. 26:55 [SPEAKER_01]: To me, that is breaking a human response and turning it against the individual. 27:04 [SPEAKER_01]: As if, so for me, what he was doing was touching, really a natural response of the body and the tearing, 27:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, but to me, I see that in an opportunity that each time their condition may not even have to use it, but still I did what he wanted because I was fearful. 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that, would you consider that ritualistic? 27:31 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of definitions would consider that ritualistic because he's got set of behaviors that he wants to happen each time and a way that he wants you to define yourself. 27:47 [SPEAKER_02]: because of that he's going to use to his advantage. 27:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And then using the party of God to justify his actions to the victim and to get them to submit because now it's under Goats Authority. 28:00 [SPEAKER_02]: All of that. 28:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people would say, it's got to be a malevolent deity. 28:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really care what kind of deity it is. 28:05 [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody's using intimidation by a deity or claiming that the deity wants this or something in order to abuse a child, 28:16 [SPEAKER_01]: They had the opportunity to take that man into a courtroom and to possibly put him where Murtsbacher is, which is another serial abuse or torture. 28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And he has life sentences, man could have the same thing. 28:29 [SPEAKER_01]: They had the opportunity. 28:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that I'm sorry I digress we will want them to suffer and I think we want them to suffer because we want them to finally get to the point where they face what they think we want them to realize. 28:49 [SPEAKER_02]: the damage and the pain and the terror. 28:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we want them to not be able to hide from that reality anymore. 28:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we want them to have to know what they did to their victims and I have to feel the guilt. 29:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think we, there's nothing evil in wanting this guy, lock him up. 29:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of my friends says her abuse or has to list, 29:20 [SPEAKER_02]: That, that, that's a good one. 29:23 [SPEAKER_02]: He is being forced and he has to listen to all of the pain heartbreak and everything that he did to, he believes that that's what happens one of the views or dies. 29:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's fair. 29:39 [SPEAKER_02]: more than there. 29:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's truly for other survivors because talk about ingrat to a regular normal body reaction by somebody who you are inside say, 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: you learn, and I'm not engaging on some level. 29:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And then have your body respond as if you want it. 30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It is the stickest confusion of person with ever experience. 30:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so I'm saying to those who are listening, and I'm not sure if anyone who is listening went to Kio and experienced that door or that cabinet, and they know what it felt like to do things. 30:24 [SPEAKER_01]: They would never have done because they were afraid he would want to bring your evil part out in front of someone else. 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, we're not the blame. 30:40 [SPEAKER_01]: experience such a thing. 30:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling it to me. 30:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling it to this water one. 30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We are not the blame for responding to a bodily function, to a manipulation that would ring anyone to that kind of of conclusion or climax wherever you were at. 31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So I want survivors to hear what I'm saying is hard to do that, that is real, it is wrong, it was done. 31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is something that we need to come to terms with is not our fault. 31:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Completely agree with you. 31:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really, it's very brave with you to talk about this. 31:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is also being talked about more within the trauma field. 31:28 [SPEAKER_02]: People are talking about unwanted sexual responses, even to rap as an adult sometimes. 31:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 31:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Some kind of, they don't know exactly how it works, but within the state of terror, 31:39 [SPEAKER_02]: while being raped, some women have very involuntary orgasms that have nothing to do with wanting any part of it. 31:47 [SPEAKER_02]: The one wonder if it's some kind of excitation transfer, where the sympathetic system arousal that comes with terror. 31:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's direct to some of the same kind of sympathetic nervous system excitation that comes with sexual arousal and some people are even wondering Is this some kind of evolution driven response that women needed to evolve into having because women have been raped so much 32:19 [SPEAKER_02]: throughout history, it allows for certain amount of lubrication, less amount of damage, maybe people who had this response survived, more or less may have had worse internal bleeding. 32:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So they're looking at that. 32:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely, I have, I have worked with three-year-old children who were made to be orgasmic who once they learned about it, seek it themselves, try to find a way to induce those once they learn about it, once they get pissed the anxiety and start seeking the sexual pleasure. 32:49 [SPEAKER_02]: As John is three years old, I also remember one little four-year-old boy who 32:54 [SPEAKER_02]: That's sexually abused by the neighborhood Disney film showing pedophile in the typical story. 33:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's right. 33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: When he would have erections, he would get really upset. 33:04 [SPEAKER_02]: He would pride it with mothers, scream and fear, make it stop. 33:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Those feelings. 33:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's confusing. 33:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It's producing to a little kid. 33:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard enough for a 12 or 13 year old who begins to 33:16 [SPEAKER_02]: how these feelings and to try to figure out what they're certain amount of anxiety, even with the normal development, without any sexual abuse, when these feelings start happening. 33:24 [SPEAKER_02]: We need a framework to understand them. 33:26 [SPEAKER_02]: That's where your little friends come in. 33:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is, this is about sex. 33:30 [SPEAKER_02]: This is, oh, really? 33:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I have one thing that I would like to just ask you of it. 33:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I had found since I've been remembering and connecting and reintegrating. 33:41 [SPEAKER_01]: that I have been and I'll say that I don't know if anyone else will be able to say yes to this too. 33:48 [SPEAKER_01]: What discussed me the most in the last and I need your opinion on it from if you've heard this too. 33:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It thinks that he would use. 33:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He did have books of little kids who were dressed in very provocative underwear. 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And he would just get them out for you to look real. 34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I find is there was things that I would 34:12 [SPEAKER_01]: up that would, it better clearable to me. 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet they, it might make still. 34:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Physically, I am turned one by things that are the worst things that I want to, because of things that he, and you should meet, be conditioned to be turned one two. 34:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Those of you here that, that people still have body reactions to. 34:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 34:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's unavoidable. 34:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that, yes, having been put into situations as a child, 34:42 [SPEAKER_02]: where you are thrown to some kind of sexual arousal either through stimulation like you described with the tools that he was using or by showing a child or anography that can be enough to create a lot of sexual arousal or witnessing other people having sex. 35:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So whenever kind of exposure, director, and director will here together, classically condition, sexual responses, and those stimuli. 35:11 [SPEAKER_02]: There's also something about the earliest sexual feelings and what they're associated with. 35:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if that kind of creates a critical period. 35:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Lorenz and the ducks where I think his name, Conrad Lorenz, was a scientist who decided to be there when the ducks came out. 35:30 [SPEAKER_02]: The ducklings came out of the eggs. 35:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And the duckling saw him and then they started following him like the mother duck and he came up with the theory of imprinting that there is a critical period in the little mind of the little ducklings that would cause them to bond to the first. 35:46 [SPEAKER_02]: animate creature that they saw which in this case was Lorenz and Stan of the Mother Duck. 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that when a person is sexually supposed to something as a child, it creates a critical period where now this becomes a particularly exciting sexual stimulus where that person, because it's the dawning of their sexuality. 36:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I often thought, and I checked this out with a survivor colleague who I respect a lot, 36:14 [SPEAKER_02]: who never fails to out-brilliant me within two minutes, I said to her, so what I tell my clients is, okay, you're having sex with a partner in that somebody who you want to be having sex with and there's no negative feeling about you, this is a choice, this is a good situation, it's healthy, there's nothing. 36:38 [SPEAKER_02]: destructive about it and then your mind flashes back on the sexual abuse because they're aroused and then you go back to a previous situation in which you were aroused and then you're horrified you know that you had that arousal response while you were with a partner and appropriate partner and you know what's wrong with me and this and that and I tell them listen you cannot help this your mind will flip there because it's part of if you want to get neurobiological 37:05 [SPEAKER_02]: part of the synaptic network of all of your sexual responses. 37:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just all associated memories, feelings, et cetera. 37:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're going to remember you're going to flesh on it. 37:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It was sexually arousing because the abuser made sure it was not all sexual abuse in the sexual arousal sense. 37:23 [SPEAKER_02]: just hurt children, and there maybe there is no real. 37:26 [SPEAKER_02]: But if there was a real soul, it's part of that. 37:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So see it if net were, and you will, flesh back on it. 37:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And instead of condemning yourself and being horrified, you go, okay. 37:36 [SPEAKER_02]: This is inevitable. 37:37 [SPEAKER_02]: It's part of my experiences with those responses. 37:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So I tell them that, okay, you've got it to say to yourself, okay, my mind went back there. 37:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a bad person, this is a normal artifact of having been abused or exposed to sexuality in a young age. 37:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter. 37:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay. 37:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I can let it go instead of hate myself, and I can just focus back where I am now. 38:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So the real trick is whether you condemn yourself, 38:07 [SPEAKER_02]: as evil or bad, or whether you understand it psychologically, and go, okay, so what, I'm, that happened. 38:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to linger on it. 38:18 [SPEAKER_02]: It's sometimes you do have to train yourself, create a whole new way of being sexual. 38:24 [SPEAKER_02]: So let's say that somebody had been maybe a lot of pain was associated with arousal because of sexual abuse or something. 38:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the only pathway the person knew toward a full sexual response. 38:37 [SPEAKER_02]: The person may without condemning themselves. 38:40 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the really the key because if you condemn yourself, you get stuck and you'll never get past it but you go, okay, I have that but I can learn to do it another way. 38:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I can learn to just experience 38:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Our pleasure without pain. 38:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I have pain myself to focus on the sexual sensations without the pain, but I can develop the capacity to do this. 39:01 [SPEAKER_02]: without pain. 39:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I hate to use this example because of the fact that it was used in your piece, but let's say in a normal adult woman, she developed a dependence on a vibrator for orgasm. 39:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no abuse. 39:15 [SPEAKER_02]: She just learned to use it. 39:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And now that she thinks that's the only way that she can have an orgasm, she might be a little upset about that because she now she's with her partner and she wants to be able to learn 39:25 [SPEAKER_02]: how to be aroused by manual stimulation or oral stimulation or something like that, it's going to take a little work. 39:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Today with the sexual feelings, the less intense stimulus and to learn how to create a whole new pathway to a sexual response without a vibrator. 39:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying a vibrator is a bad thing. 39:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying she could create another 39:49 [SPEAKER_02]: halfway. 39:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, so my friend, I asked her about this, and I said, do you agree that you know, when a survivor of child sexual abuse is having sex, and their mind goes back to the sexual arousal that they had, well, they were sexually abused. 40:04 [SPEAKER_02]: If it was that kind of sexual abuse, that they just need to say, okay, that's normal. 40:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not bad. 40:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not bad. 40:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just an association. 40:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I can let it go and focus back here on being in the present in this space that I'm in with this person right now. 40:20 [SPEAKER_02]: She goes, yep, that's what I tell people to choose. 40:22 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay, a survivor tells me, that's what to do it.
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