0:07 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 0:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello friend, at the end of 2022, I joined Gemma in Maryland at her home. 0:37 [SPEAKER_01]: We recorded this special podcast episode that you are about to hear. 0:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This was prior to the Attorney General's report being released. 0:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Throughout the episode, I will provide a few updates on the information we talk about. 0:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to FilePlay, I'm back in Jim's house, which is the second time I've been here this year, which is crazy because this is going to be our 86th podcast. 1:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And when Jim and I first started recording podcasts, we were just going to do one, two, maybe three, but quickly that expanded. 1:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And we, I think both share this want and desire to hold people 1:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Gemma, I'm going to let you introduce why I'm here and who our guest is. 1:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Shane. 1:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad that I have Shane and my guest in my home at the beach, as you all know. 1:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is exciting because our guest today is a woman who has undertaken 1:39 [SPEAKER_03]: the mission of finding justice for abuse survivors in a very different way. 1:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So today I want to introduce our guest. 1:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Her name is Catherine Rence. 1:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the program. 1:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Toma and Shane. 1:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 1:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, having me. 1:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 1:56 [SPEAKER_03]: This is going to be a very different but intersecting topic that we're going to be talking about today. 2:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to start by asking 2:09 [SPEAKER_03]: and who you are then we'll go from there. 2:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. 2:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I am a journalist and filmmaker and I usually focus on under-reported under-investigated stories. 2:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I come from Texas originally and it was there where I learned out of fairly 2:28 [SPEAKER_02]: early age that some people in power don't always tell the truth. 2:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Texas is like a lot of other places but I would say more they say everything's bigger in Texas and it generally is but I grew up with a love of 2:43 [SPEAKER_02]: newspapers and PBS and my first job out of journalism graduate school was at a PBS frontline production company in DC and I worked on various investigations at Patrick Smith Productions that was a production company and did about eight frontline documentaries and after that I've done various investigations also print for the New York Times for 3:13 [SPEAKER_02]: and various outlets, and the work for the Baltimore Sun, I'm investigative desk for a number of years, focusing on a case of the sexual assault and hate crimes, and subjects that hadn't really been reported out that much in the region. 3:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Then I went back to documentary, so that's where I'm at right now, it's working on a documentary, and print pieces for Propublica. 3:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So before we move on with Katherine's story, I want to let everybody know. 3:47 [SPEAKER_03]: We have two people here with us today that I want to warmly welcome to the program into my home. 3:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Shane's assistant, Kim is here. 3:55 [SPEAKER_03]: They drove for two days to get here from Indiana. 3:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And I also want to welcome somebody that you all know, John Benon. 4:02 [SPEAKER_03]: who is the director of photography for the keepers, and so John and I are part of that big dysfunctional family that functions pretty well, and so John is filming today for Katherine's documentary. 4:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, John and I are working on a documentary together and I just want to give a shout out to John who I don't think many people know that in these documentaries like the keepers and in this one, the cinematographer has a lot. 4:43 [SPEAKER_02]: to do behind the scenes and it's very important to these productions. 4:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And John is a rock star in this world and is very into justice for women. 4:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the documentary that we're working on is about this really unique revolutionary kind of DNA database. 5:06 [SPEAKER_02]: First of us kind in the country, as far as we know, it's in Baltimore County, and it has solved a lot of once thought of us unsolvable crimes, and is fairly recently newly discovered. 5:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And right now, we are for this documentary, following a group of individuals, we're following some former police detectives. 5:34 [SPEAKER_02]: following some survivors as they investigate some of these unsolved crimes and push for justice, particularly in cases that have involved women and violence against women. 5:50 [SPEAKER_02]: The documentary is looking at a series of lynch crimes, but one of the main crimes that we're 6:02 [SPEAKER_02]: She was about to be a senior at Gautre College, then in all women's college in 1983, when she disappeared. 6:09 [SPEAKER_02]: She was last seen at the Baltimore County Library in Toulson. 6:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was just 21 years old, beloved student. 6:20 [SPEAKER_02]: She was a president of her Christian fellowship group at Gautre. 6:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And she disappeared when Friday evening in the summer 6:30 [SPEAKER_02]: wasn't found for several days, eventually they found her stabbed to death on Goucher's campus. 6:40 [SPEAKER_02]: We're looking at that case and it's 6:44 [SPEAKER_02]: links to some other cases that we were investigating. 6:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So in our documentary, we're investigating some of the cases that have already been solved with this evidence that a doctor saved a hospital. 6:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll just go quickly into what the doctor savings was and why it was so unique. 7:03 [SPEAKER_02]: The doctor in 1975 set up the rape care center at the Greater Baltimore Medical Center. 7:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a hospital that serves 7:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And he set up the ratecare center and started doing something that nobody else was doing at the time, which is saving specimens from the victims who went into hospitals for rape examinations. 7:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was highly unique, they didn't have forensic DNA at the time that wasn't discovered 7:45 [SPEAKER_02]: but he had a forensic science background and just thought we need to save this information because it could be the one thing that links the perpetrator to this horrible crime. 7:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he also knew at the time that police and other hospitals were destroying the evidence. 8:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody saw it as valuable as he did. 8:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he just quietly saved everything he could on glass slides and side glass tubes. 8:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I started looking into some crimes that have been solved with his DNA so far, 8:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And started just filing public information and it's request about the men who have been arrested from testing the doctor's DNA. 8:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And developed a database of serial rapist in the area. 8:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them stood out as particularly bad serial rapist. 8:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And I 8:49 [SPEAKER_02]: new their emos where they offended in the type of victims they offended. 8:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I came across an article several months into our investigation, I came across an article about the disappearance and murder of Alicia Carter. 9:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I just gasped because details in the case jumped out 9:19 [SPEAKER_02]: who is in the state of Bayes, who was found because the doctors DNA, there were a lot of similarities, and so that's what we started investigating about a year ago. 9:33 [SPEAKER_02]: That's really the main narrative thread and the documentary, and then we're also piecing together some other both solved and unsolved cases that are related to Alicia's disappearance. 9:45 [SPEAKER_01]: For those slides, I know a lot of people when they hear the word rape kit, we have an idea of what that is. 9:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But for him to have saved the slides, can you walk me through exactly what his process was, a woman or was it any men or was it just women in the slides that he has? 10:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, he was women and men who was mostly women, but when he showed up and started working in Baltimore in the Baltimore area, he said that it was almost a disaster zone for survivors when they went to the hospitals. 10:25 [SPEAKER_02]: There were no very few rape care centers and people would wait for 10 or so hours to get an exam 10:32 [SPEAKER_02]: evidence was not preserved. 10:34 [SPEAKER_02]: They would look for injuries and take a record of what she said happened and that would be in her report. 10:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he started a standardized exam in which he had two pages full of questions. 10:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He would ask them and make record of the injuries. 10:53 [SPEAKER_02]: But most importantly, 11:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Similar to standardized rape cuts that we have today and you have swabs that you swab without going into too much detail, you're taking swabs. 11:12 [SPEAKER_02]: and collecting potential specimens that come from the perpetrator. 11:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So you have their DNA. 11:20 [SPEAKER_02]: He would then put that onto a glass microscope slide and look for anything that came from the perpetrator such as sperm or blood. 11:31 [SPEAKER_02]: He would know that and put a stain on it and keep it. 11:36 [SPEAKER_02]: He also filled glass tubes. 11:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And he froze out. 11:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So he was saving the evidence in two different ways. 11:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was rigorously organized. 11:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He would put the victim's name on it. 11:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He had a case number. 11:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And he saved it all in a secure area inside the hospital. 12:01 [SPEAKER_02]: The tubes would go inside a freezer and the slides would go inside cabinets somewhere. 12:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And I will get to how I'm bring that is later, but he also kept a logbook. 12:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So for every victim who came in, he would know the details of the case of forensic evidence that he saved their names and all of that. 12:24 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was his system. 12:26 [SPEAKER_02]: He came from a really unique background that I would say the vast majority of doctors seeing rape patients did not have. 12:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He was a forensic pathologist. 12:39 [SPEAKER_02]: He was an assistant medical examiner. 12:41 [SPEAKER_02]: for the state of Maryland, so he knew how valuable evidence was. 12:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He came out from a detective point of view. 12:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Almost a medical detective kind of CSI point of view in that he knew this was precious evidence that could change lives, change lives of the victims, preserve lives of 13:04 [SPEAKER_02]: other women and so he saved everything like you do when you're in a medical examiner situation you want to save everything you can so he saved everything. 13:15 [SPEAKER_02]: inside the hospital. 13:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Now what they do in most places is that everything goes over to the police. 13:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the sexual assault forensic examiner is out of hospital will do the exam and collect all that DNA evidence. 13:31 [SPEAKER_02]: But instead of being stored out of a hospital, of course, it 13:41 [SPEAKER_02]: and you can associate that with a perpetrator during the investigation. 13:45 [SPEAKER_02]: The doctor kept it at the hospital because that's part of our investigation. 13:52 [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to figure out what I heard the story about the doctor and what he did. 13:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I could not believe it. 13:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very unusual. 14:01 [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't hear about this, certainly him saving this evidence long before standardized rape kits or forensic DNA was even came over here from England. 14:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he saved it, basically, because he felt it so precious. 14:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And he did not think that it would be as well, taking care of elsewhere. 14:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Catherine, you've had a number of personal interactions with the doctor. 14:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you tell us who he is and what your conversations were like and how you came to meet him? 14:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. 14:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He's an interesting guy. 14:42 [SPEAKER_02]: native to Austria. 14:44 [SPEAKER_02]: He grew up in World War II, Austria's young boy. 14:48 [SPEAKER_02]: He unfortunately saw this kind of crime go with impunity in Europe during World II. 14:56 [SPEAKER_02]: He comes over after that to the United States. 15:01 [SPEAKER_02]: He already got a medical degree in Austria and he starts getting trained as a forensic scientist 15:09 [SPEAKER_02]: by one of the forefathers of Rinsic Science, a limon's Snyder who wrote one of the early books on homicide investigations. 15:19 [SPEAKER_02]: He works at hospitals and he's teaching at Duke University. 15:24 [SPEAKER_02]: He eventually comes to Baltimore to work in the medical examiner office and works on autopsy and is really 15:39 [SPEAKER_02]: why people essentially why people die. 15:42 [SPEAKER_02]: These unexplained dust. 15:44 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what you do when you're a medical examiner. 15:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody dies and you don't know exactly how they died. 15:50 [SPEAKER_02]: They go in and try to figure that mystery out. 15:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So he does that. 15:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Just personality wise, here's a really funny guy, which I guess you have to be when you hope this kind of serious work and you're constantly 16:06 [SPEAKER_02]: He just would have these deadpan jokes. 16:10 [SPEAKER_02]: When I met him and started talking to him in 2017, he then, again, in 2019, 2022. 16:17 [SPEAKER_02]: He was facing his own death. 16:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So he knew how he was going to die most likely and he would joke about it. 16:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Medically, this is how I'm going to die and he would pretend that this is what I look like toward the end. 16:32 [SPEAKER_02]: But he was a very, besides being funny, he was also a serious scientist and really interested in discovery. 16:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I would say, 16:46 [SPEAKER_02]: like a lot of scientists, they are constantly interested in new developments in figuring out like blood typing and how you can uncover this crime through various scientific methods. 17:00 [SPEAKER_02]: People describe him as a Quincy, I mean, it was like the early CSI in the 1970s and this kind of 17:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, root a girl, retnic her, retnic her, retnic her. 17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 17:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 17:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I call on Dr. B for short. 17:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody calls him Dr. B for short because yes, that's a hard name to pronounce. 17:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And so everybody calls him Dr. B. 17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I started getting Dr. B. 17:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Story in 2017. 17:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Just went out. 17:36 [SPEAKER_02]: He used to live in this beautiful horse-bound farm in Cockie'sville, Maryland, and Baltimore County. 17:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would just go sit with him with my Zoom reporter and hear about 17:49 [SPEAKER_02]: his story where he came from and why he decided to save and what he found as a result of those savings. 18:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Before you get into that, can you explain how you first came about him and those slides? 18:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, it all started in 2015, 2016, when I was investigated a reporter for the Baltimore Sun, a survivor, and Baltimore County, sending email to myself and my colleague, Allison Kinesvich. 18:24 [SPEAKER_02]: and she, the survivor spoke of her rape kit getting destroyed. 18:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was just taking a back. 18:34 [SPEAKER_02]: She had wanted to pursue her case and realize that she couldn't anymore because her evidence was gone. 18:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I have heard about backload rate kits. 18:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I certainly knew that was very much an issue in the country and had been an issue for years, but I had not heard of destroyed rate kits. 18:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we started calling police departments in the Baltimore region and sending out public information requests trying to figure out, is this a thing? 19:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Do police destroy evidence and extremely violent felony crimes and 19:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they do. 19:15 [SPEAKER_02]: That it is a practice in many agencies to regularly destroy rape kits and so some agencies like Montgomery County, which is around DC, kept everything for a very long time were as Baltimore County was destroying them as early as six months after the crime and 19:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Baltimore City, also had been destroying them, but had stopped. 19:45 [SPEAKER_02]: But there was just a hodgepodge of policies across the state. 19:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And it may no sense because your life, as a survivor, could depend upon whether you lived on this side of 20:00 [SPEAKER_02]: a county jurisdiction line of some jurisdiction line one police department dealt with evidence this way and another police department dealt with it the other way it's really was unfortunate because you see 20:15 [SPEAKER_02]: and these kind of crimes can impact women, women, or the rest of their lives. 20:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we published a report talking about this destruction and how's our not only of retaining evidence, but also of testing evidence. 20:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And Baltimore County was one of the worst offenders that we investigated and found that it had thrown away about 20:44 [SPEAKER_02]: 600, no sorry, it's about 500 rape kits. 20:48 [SPEAKER_02]: We found out that Baltimore County had thrown away about 500 rape kits over the last six years. 20:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So after that piece was published in the Baltimore Sun, there was legislation that passed that. 21:04 [SPEAKER_02]: required police departments across the state to retain rape kits for at least 20 years. 21:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And many police permits, including Baltimore County, decided that we're going to keep them a lot longer, 75 years or more. 21:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So through this investigation of this mass destruction, I heard of this story that was completely opposite of what I had been investigating in one of the jurisdictions that had the worst destruction policies was this doctor who saved DNA and built this DNA database, which I think is the oldest in the country 21:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he saved and was very organized about saving and even I found out over his career threatened to quit his job if anything was done with his savings and so I want to know who was this doctor who decided to save and the face of all of this destruction? 22:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Why did he do it and what do we know about his savings? 22:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Katherine, our audience will recognize Allison can as of its name because she's been an advocate for all things keepers and the CIO survivors. 22:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And right up until she left the sunpapers this past year, she's been right there in the forefront with us. 22:35 [SPEAKER_03]: What would you consider one or two of the most significant details that you've uncovered and your judgment so far? 22:46 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the most significant details, I will say that the story is both inspirational as well as horrifying. 22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: My investigation when I got into it was like watching a horshow and reverse in a way when I started finding out what all had been uncovered through these slides when they were eventually tested for some of them were tested for DNA. 23:16 [SPEAKER_02]: part, and that really deals with some of the characters in the show, the doctor, and then a police sergeant Rose Brady and some of our survivors, including Lauren Newman, they all did something 23:34 [SPEAKER_02]: different than what was done at the time or what had been done in many cases broke protocols to get massive justice. 23:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So the doctor did what nobody else was doing. 23:46 [SPEAKER_02]: He decided that he was going to save DNA and protect it at the risk of his own job. 23:53 [SPEAKER_02]: and the police sergeant rose Brady. 23:57 [SPEAKER_02]: She was the first female sergeant to come in to Baltimore County, police SVU. 24:03 [SPEAKER_02]: She came in in 2004 and she wanted to solve some coal cases. 24:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And when she sent her detectives down to the evidence room, found that 24:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, most of our evidence is destroyed, most of the DNA from other hospitals that had come in as rape kits or from the crime scenes that most of that was destroyed in these sex crime cases, and then she found out that there was a lot of violence in her life. 24:30 [SPEAKER_02]: about this really crazy stash of DNA slides at the hospital. 24:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was the first one to start testing this DNA in batches. 24:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So she wanted to solve some of these cool cases and start sending off the doctor slides to private forensic companies. 24:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So she did something different than her predecessors who were either ignoring the Savinance or were destroying the evidence. 24:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have Lauren Newman, who is a survivor in Baltimore City, who is one of the fabulous survivors we feature in the documentary. 25:09 [SPEAKER_02]: She decided to speak out about her case, which we get into in the documentary. 25:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It's tied to some of the 25:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And she decided to speak out in 2002, which was unusual for survivors at the time. 25:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And that ended up, as we'll see in our documentary, it ended up leading to other justice. 25:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So one of my main questions in this investigation was what is the result of the doctor's savings? 25:42 [SPEAKER_02]: What do we know from all of these slides that he saved? 25:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So I did a public information act request in around 2018 to look at all of the arrest resulting from Rose Brady's cold case investigations. 26:02 [SPEAKER_02]: When she got subpoenas to get all these slides from the hospital, because they were still stored at the hospital. 26:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So she got all these slides start testing them 26:13 [SPEAKER_02]: started making all of these connections to perpetrators. 26:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And I found that she had arrested about four dozen men during her investigation. 26:24 [SPEAKER_02]: She 26:26 [SPEAKER_02]: pulled about 158 cases from the hospital. 26:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So keep safe, 2252 cases. 26:32 [SPEAKER_02]: 2252. 26:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Rose Brady goes in there and tests. 26:40 [SPEAKER_02]: She pulled 158 cases and ends up getting DNA profiles on 101. 26:46 [SPEAKER_02]: cases. 26:47 [SPEAKER_02]: It was less than five percent of what he said that she didn't have any money. 26:50 [SPEAKER_02]: She was finding money elsewhere. 26:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And so she ends up arresting four dozen men, some of them for multiple cases. 27:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them, one of them had 10 rape cases. 27:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So the doctor, 27:08 [SPEAKER_02]: had been pulling DNA from these rape examinations over two decades that he was there. 27:15 [SPEAKER_02]: The more than two decades, some of them from the same men, he just didn't know. 27:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody knew that there is a these serial rapists that were showing up in these examinations. 27:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 27:28 [SPEAKER_02]: They arrested four dozen men, half of them turned out to be suspected serial rapists, meaning they had charges for two or more sexual assault cases. 27:41 [SPEAKER_02]: What really blew me away was when I looked at their criminal histories, I built a database of all of their criminal histories in Maryland. 27:51 [SPEAKER_02]: and found that each man had an average of eight charges for felony or otherwise violent crimes over the criminal career. 28:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just astonishing to see, I built a chart and we published much of this in a series called Cold Justice and Pro-Publica. 28:17 [SPEAKER_02]: and created this really interesting chart that shows the criminal histories. 28:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And you have in one line when a victim went to go see the doctor and have a rape exam. 28:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have all of these following years, all of these other crimes that happen. 28:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Other rapes, murders, assaults that happen after the women went to go see the doctor. 28:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was a demonstration of, 28:44 [SPEAKER_02]: had this DNA been tested earlier, in certain cases, the DNA testing wasn't available, but certainly some of these crimes you could argue could have been prevented if they're had been DNA testing and investigations that were earlier. 29:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Where's Rose now? 29:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Rose is retired in Baltimore County. 29:08 [SPEAKER_02]: She tends to a meal farm. 29:10 [SPEAKER_02]: She's quite a character. 29:14 [SPEAKER_02]: She likes to go. 29:16 [SPEAKER_02]: She and her husband. 29:17 [SPEAKER_02]: He was also a Baltimore County police like to do stage coach like they would get their meals onto a stage coach and go on these like 29:31 [SPEAKER_02]: and around. 29:34 [SPEAKER_02]: She's quite the character. 29:36 [SPEAKER_02]: She tells you what she thinks. 29:38 [SPEAKER_02]: She's very open about it. 29:39 [SPEAKER_02]: She wouldn't talk to me initially because of some of the articles that I wrote in the sign which was talking about some of the destruction practices and talking about some of the other 29:57 [SPEAKER_02]: which were not really flattering and led to a lot of reforms in the state legislature. 30:03 [SPEAKER_02]: She thought I was coming to her about something negative. 30:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, no, I wanted to tell this really inspirational story of the justice you got through this DNA. 30:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And what's interesting about roses, 30:20 [SPEAKER_02]: None of this would have happened. 30:22 [SPEAKER_02]: It takes a lot of things to come together for justice to happen. 30:25 [SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the big takeaways with this story. 30:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, none of this, a lot of the justice that happened as a result of the doctor's slide and is happening as a result of the doctor's slide. 30:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't have happened without the doctor, without his scientific foresight. 30:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And it also wouldn't have happened without Rose Brady saving the slides because in 2004, 30:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the slides are first couple of years of slides and she heard about them and she said you're literally yelling don't Does it or how do these slides keep these slides and so they cap them and that's when she started her Investigation and so it's really been as a journalist 31:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we are often thought of only wanting to tell negative stories, and that is absolutely not what I want to do. 31:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that courage is contagious, and I want to show what rose dead, or Sergeant Brady dead, and the saving of 31:30 [SPEAKER_02]: These slides and doing something different and she had a trust in me to be able to show that a lot of police just cut you off. 31:38 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to hear. 31:40 [SPEAKER_02]: They're afraid when investigators come knocking on the door, but we really desperately want to show how hard many of them work on these cases and what kind of obstacles. 31:51 [SPEAKER_02]: they have to get stuff done and Rose had a lot of obstacles to get stuff done. 31:58 [SPEAKER_02]: The caseload for these sexual assault crimes is insane. 32:03 [SPEAKER_02]: They have so much it's almost impossible to get through what they get through. 32:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And so she and her detectives, John and I interview, 32:14 [SPEAKER_02]: several of her cold case detectives and really wonderful forensic artists to help her on these cold cases. 32:21 [SPEAKER_02]: They all happened to be female, but they were really dedicated and solving these cases. 32:30 [SPEAKER_02]: what we meet Rose and your movie definitely you'll meet Rose and have a movie and you'll see her recreate in a way what she did early on in her career she was one of the first female 32:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Detectors, please, and Baltimore County. 32:49 [SPEAKER_02]: She had the courage to work as a decoy, a teenage decoy, in some of the sexual assault cases. 32:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And she did that through her 20s. 33:02 [SPEAKER_02]: She would either walk along busy streets where women had been apprehended, or she would sit in apartment rooms 33:14 [SPEAKER_02]: waiting for somebody to possibly attack her whenever you knew that there was a serial perpetrator focusing on this apartment complex or that apartment complex. 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 33:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 33:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone, or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 33:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the first therapist 33:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4-point star rating on trust pilot. 34:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 34:16 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Start your journey today. 34:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you explain the FBI's DNA database and how that links with the slides and what you're working on? 34:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the FBI's DNA database is called Codes, which is the combined DNA index system. 34:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's basically the FBI system to link DNA from perpetrators and crime scenes across the country. 34:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And the concept of it originated in part to catch serial sex offenders because they are notoriously reoffending. 35:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the ideas that you put in crime scene DNA from a rape kit, 35:14 [SPEAKER_02]: into the database and that database is also linked up to another database of guys who have been arrested for similar crimes. 35:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And these guys, like I said, they're notoriously reoffending and they also like to stick in certain areas. 35:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And so you can put the DNA impossibly, it will match to somebody who's been arrested for a similar crime or another crime. 35:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So that is what is happening right now with some of the new investigations of the doctors DNA. 35:51 [SPEAKER_02]: They are going 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: In and they are testing some of the DNA slides that have not yet been tested, which there are many, and putting them into the DNA database and seeing if there are any matches. 36:06 [SPEAKER_02]: What is really interesting with this is that the span of the doctor's DNA database 36:13 [SPEAKER_02]: covers a timeline of great progress in DNA technology. 36:19 [SPEAKER_02]: It started out when there of course was no DNA. 36:22 [SPEAKER_02]: No such thing as the double helixes in forensic crime situation. 36:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And now they're getting to a point where you need just like a tiny bed of a cell from a crime scene to put in and get a match. 36:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Or even if there's not a match in there, you can do a genealogy 36:42 [SPEAKER_02]: search. 36:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So you will look at these strands and see how much of it matches that to potential relatives from some of these genealogy websites like 23ME and Ancestry. 36:55 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what the police are doing with some of these crimes. 36:57 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how their gold nested killer was caught. 36:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 37:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so a lot of these guys 37:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Especially in the coal cases, never made it to the Codas database. 37:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Because Codas database wasn't really developed until the 37:14 [SPEAKER_02]: started in the early 1990s, but it didn't start getting fully populated until the late 1990s. 37:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And so many of these guys were dead or had grew so old, they stopped fending. 37:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's how they're finding a lot of them. 37:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Or they were police. 37:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're good at not getting caught. 37:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Or other perpetrators could have not getting caught. 37:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, by the Golden State Killer. 37:44 [SPEAKER_02]: which is the year he created the rape care center at the hospital, and he saved evidence from every single case through the year he retired in 1997. 37:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Catherine, I have a couple of questions about the Baltimore County Police Department. 38:04 [SPEAKER_03]: We know that you and John have met with them already. 38:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So my first question, I know our listeners are aware that a number of survivors have named or alleged that they were abused by police officers. 38:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So my first question is, I'm wondering how you were received. 38:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Baltimore County Police Department prioritizes their kits, the rate kits. 38:37 [SPEAKER_03]: What's the status now, aside from those that were saved by the doctor? 38:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. 38:43 [SPEAKER_02]: It has been a full-time job to get access to Baltimore County police and data, and it's not just Baltimore County 39:00 [SPEAKER_02]: and to talk to people. 39:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that? 39:03 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good question. 39:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still trying to understand that because ultimately we are here for the same reason, which is to get justice for survivors. 39:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think some of it is they don't want to get any information compromised, at least that's what they tell me. 39:28 [SPEAKER_02]: don't want an open cases to give away some of the details like whether there is DNA in any of these cases. 39:37 [SPEAKER_02]: But, 39:39 [SPEAKER_02]: We're interested in just showing their work and we find that it's really important for survivors to see this because they don't trust anyone. 39:51 [SPEAKER_02]: There's very little trust out there for good reason, especially when you've been abused by somebody of authority and have been mistrusted by police in the past. 40:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we thought that this is a good opportunity for this project in which you have this historical justice happening. 40:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Really, this cascade of justice that has happened from the doctor's DNA and is in the process of happening again with this new testing. 40:22 [SPEAKER_02]: We thought it would be a good opportunity for the police to come forward and show We're open we're transparent and look at what we're doing here's us working on some cases and they let our cameras end for a little bit to do a little bit of Be real but 40:40 [SPEAKER_02]: especially after they announced some reform efforts in 2019, they got a new head of the SVU and they let us in. 40:48 [SPEAKER_02]: He was very progressive. 40:50 [SPEAKER_02]: It has since changed and we don't have the access anymore and 40:57 [SPEAKER_02]: There's new leadership there. 40:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I've had to go to the Maryland Public Unbudsman who's in charge of Maryland Public Information Act requests if you're a journalist or a lawyer and are getting 41:11 [SPEAKER_02]: unfairly you think rejected from your public information requests. 41:14 [SPEAKER_02]: You can go appeal to the on buzzman. 41:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've had to do that with almost every single request that I've made for public documents to please. 41:24 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very odd. 41:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't I do not have this experience in other states that I've reported in like in Texas or Florida other places with really strong open records laws. 41:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just 41:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Police departments in Maryland have become very secretive for various reasons. 41:43 [SPEAKER_02]: That's why we've seen a lot of laws and recent years to try to open that back up and It's really interesting in Maryland what you've seen beginning in 2015 Some women were trying to get information on their rape kits and legislators were helping them in police 42:03 [SPEAKER_02]: across the state, we're saying, no, we can't give you this information, so they passed a law in 2015 requiring police departments to report rape kit information, rape evidence of information like this is the evidence, this is how much we have, this is where yours is, and we'll just have basically big numbers of the evidence per department, and then they 42:32 [SPEAKER_02]: You can't destroy the evidence and they passed legislation not long after that that you have to test most of this rape kid evidence. 42:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And you have to report it in your report that goes to the governor's office. 42:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're slowly seeing this open up, but it's a forced opening. 42:54 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a forced opening by state legislators 42:58 [SPEAKER_02]: making police count the evidence, not destroy it, test it and report it. 43:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I have been appreciative of that because it's letting me see what's in the evidence room a little bit more, but it's still a constant prime open to get information. 43:18 [SPEAKER_02]: We have been to see the evidence room at a private 43:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Forensic DNA testing company called BODY, which is testing most of the doctor's slides. 43:31 [SPEAKER_02]: That's where Baltimore County outsources everything. 43:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Catherine, I actually have two follow-up questions. 43:37 [SPEAKER_03]: One is, it sounds like the Baltimore County Police Department covet their stuff. 43:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And we've also run into that with trying to get information. 43:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm wondering if you have a concept of why that might be. 43:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And 43:54 [SPEAKER_03]: in talking with them, how they prioritize the kits, the cases that they are dealing with, were you able to get a sense of what they're willing to share in terms of how recently they with someone, if there's a rape kit delivered to the police department, tomorrow, how long it's going to be before it gets dealt with, were you given a sense of that? 44:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I have another 44:21 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, getting information from police about testing of these slides is very difficult. 44:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I've had to appeal to the State on Basman to get internal reports about what has been tested and what hasn't been tested. 44:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I have not found any prioritization chart, but I know that in the past when Rose Brady was 44:50 [SPEAKER_02]: the cases which she thought she could close quickly. 44:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So she went for the stranger rape cases in which there was a victim who was participating, agreeing to participate in the investigation and prosecution. 45:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And those stranger rape cases that looked like they were serial, like the sky was doing an over and over. 45:14 [SPEAKER_02]: They wanted to get these guys as soon as they could. 45:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And then she 45:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And the cases with acquaintances, so say an uncle or a cousin or a coworker or a priest clergy members those with known offenders were generally not tested the importance of testing those kind of cases really cannot be overstated at something that police have not done in the past across the country. 45:48 [SPEAKER_02]: they didn't do these because they thought we already know the suspect if we test the DNA that's not going to help us at all because we already know the guys. 45:59 [SPEAKER_02]: So why I spend money on doing this? 46:02 [SPEAKER_02]: You absolutely want to do that because 46:05 [SPEAKER_02]: sex offenders are serial offenders and they rape as we know, not just known acquaintances, but also strangers. 46:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And doing it, testing their DNA, you can help expose patterns. 46:21 [SPEAKER_02]: This person wasn't just offending their cousin or niece or nephew, 46:29 [SPEAKER_02]: they were doing it to a bunch of others if you load that DNA into the database and you can solve these stranger cases, and many of the cases and of come across in Baltimore County, these cereals were offending both known victims, relatives, for example, as well as strangers. 46:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Those were not tested, right now as I understand, they want to do everything that is eligible for the Codus database. 47:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 47:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So that means that they believe, please believe that there was a crime committed, and there was a rape kit involved, or the doctor's DNA, and they upload it into the system. 47:16 [SPEAKER_02]: what I have called from some of these reports from police that I've obtained through public information act is that they have pulled some cases from the hospital and about half of those are already adjudicated cases. 47:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Just plain to our listeners with that mean. 47:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So already adjudicated cases 47:41 [SPEAKER_02]: means that the case was investigated and tried and the judicial system and some manner. 47:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it went to court and it was dismissed. 47:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it was plateaued to a battery conviction or something like a rape conviction was plateaued to something. 48:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So 48:04 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of these were adjudicated prior to DNA testing. 48:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And so now, please want to go back in and add DNA where they can because, again, these guys don't stop and by putting their DNA into the system, they can potentially solve other cases. 48:24 [SPEAKER_02]: They are now also, I understand starting to go with some of the older cases, so these cases did back to 1970s. 48:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I have found in investigating these slides is that the perpetrators and the survivors are dying. 48:48 [SPEAKER_02]: They're dying waiting for justice. 48:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And police are starting to test again and are starting to go back to the older cases and hopefully get some justice. 49:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Catherine, do you have any idea when 49:06 [SPEAKER_03]: someone joins the police department if their DNA is taken. 49:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Just as a part of that process of joining. 49:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I do not know whether their DNA is taken as a part of that process. 49:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I do know that it is not taken and loaded up into this database, the code of database, the FBI database. 49:29 [SPEAKER_02]: They have to be a suspect and a crime to be loaded into that code of database. 49:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I would think that most of the police officers and former police officers are not in the code of the database. 49:42 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, makes sense to me that would just be a part of the process because if a police officer is arresting somebody and there's DNA at the scene, they could eliminate the officer's DNA if they're the arresting officer and deal with what remains. 49:57 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's just my simple mind. 49:59 [SPEAKER_03]: thinking, but I also, and as you're all aware, a number of police officers were involved in abusing young men and women in the 60s and 70s who were part of Joseph Moscow's network. 50:14 [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm just contemplating maybe most of them we know were Baltimore County police officers and their children and grandchildren are still living and we've met resistance from the police department in terms of I've shared all the names I have and I know a lot of survivors have but I'm just wondering if that blue then blue line is not so thin. 50:41 [SPEAKER_03]: What are your thoughts? 50:42 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very good question, and I have to say when I watched the keepers, of course, I like many people focused on the clergy, and I heard police, I didn't realize whether they were Baltimore City or Baltimore County Police. 51:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the crimes that were described were so horrific by clergy. 51:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what everybody focused on. 51:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was only recently that I found out that some of the police that the survivors were talking about were Baltimore County police. 51:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. 51:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And that 51:19 [SPEAKER_02]: father, maschool, just maschool was a Baltimore County chaplain for the police. 51:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So he pastured some of the police officers and according to the survivors brought them into his office and parks across the county and took them on railings with some of the girls. 51:44 [SPEAKER_02]: He had a uniform. 51:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's all been very eye-opening to me. 51:53 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, at Gemma, I just, I'd always wondered why the Baltimore County doctor and Dr. B saved off site. 52:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I think. 52:09 [SPEAKER_02]: were so thankful he did because it ended up with the savings of what has turned out to be a roll of decks of serial fenders in the county. 52:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, I and survivors are wondering whether some of these officers are going to show up. 52:32 [SPEAKER_02]: and the testing that has happened, happening right now, and one thing I could never understand and I still don't understand is the doctor started saving in 1975 and saved thousands upon thousands of forensic evidence in these glass slides and tubes over 22 years 53:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is able to get really bad guys off the street and prevent crimes and save the department, save the community money, why wouldn't they want to test all of this years ago. 53:16 [SPEAKER_02]: to get public safety. 53:19 [SPEAKER_02]: That is their goal is for public safety and to protect women. 53:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And we know there are bad guys on these flies. 53:27 [SPEAKER_02]: This is like these flies that are in boxes in Baltimore County are like boxes of drivers license of bad guys. 53:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Why haven't they tested? 53:39 [SPEAKER_02]: all of this years ago when they when DNA technology was available and not being transparent about that I've heard that it has to do with budget that they didn't test because of budget which quite frankly is a bunch of BS. 53:56 [SPEAKER_02]: They have the money. 53:57 [SPEAKER_02]: They can find the money. 53:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Go look in their annual rewards Baltimore County. 54:01 [SPEAKER_02]: There's been a more money on a bunch of other stuff like replacing 54:08 [SPEAKER_02]: There's been a lot more money on those kind of things and they are on testing and investigating these cases. 54:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I've never quite understood that delay. 54:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And what has been known now, the doctor's database as the earliest DNA database of its crime, tracking these kinds of crimes is now turning out to be the longest DNA database to be tested. 54:34 [SPEAKER_02]: and it just keeps dragging on the police chief back in 2019, the chief Melissa Hayat and the county executive of Baltimore County announced a new initiative to go back into the doctor's evidence and start testing more. 54:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And three years later, we've tested another 124 cases. 54:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He 54:59 [SPEAKER_02]: 2252s just taken a bite out of the evidence. 55:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, to our credit, they have more people on staff investigating this instead of no full time detectives like they had under Rosbrady. 55:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Rosbrady was begging for new detectives. 55:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Now they've got two full time detectives looking into this evidence. 55:29 [SPEAKER_02]: to toss as evidence. 55:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So resources really should not be an issue. 55:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's still taking forever. 55:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I think part of that has been legitimately as Bena COVID delay. 55:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So the labs at these private DNA testing companies were backed up. 55:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And that did 55:52 [SPEAKER_02]: legitimately delay their process. 55:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think some survivors, including those, 56:00 [SPEAKER_02]: from Kia who now see these evidence as their last hope of potential forensic collaboration of some of these guys, some of these perpetrators are really hoping that they get this tested yesterday. 56:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And hoping that there is perhaps some external oversight in this testing process beyond 56:26 [SPEAKER_02]: the police who come from an agency where these survivors have said perpetrators work for. 56:36 [SPEAKER_03]: So it makes you wonder who the anonymous names are and the attorney general's report who are. 56:43 [SPEAKER_03]: I think everybody wants to know. 56:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I can probably fair. 56:49 [SPEAKER_03]: be safe and saying there is going to be police officers names, politicians, names, staff members from churches and schools and my feeling is they should have thought about that before they were complicit in hurting children. 57:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it's so 57:09 [SPEAKER_02]: important for police to be transparent about this process because people are going to be suspicious of what's in there and they're going to wonder who all is in there and if they test all of this evidence, 57:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And if they feel like they're being, if police feel like they're being unfairly attacked, that their guys weren't part of the sex crime, then tell us the evidence, show, and be transparent about it. 57:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Have somebody else come in and look at it. 57:42 [SPEAKER_02]: That is what Lord Newman, one of the survivors, and to the other survivor, Theresa Lane Caster and Jean 57:52 [SPEAKER_02]: have been asking for is some oversight in this DNA testing process. 57:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Here we are, is 2022. 58:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It's nearly half a century since when the doctors started saving this evidence. 58:09 [SPEAKER_02]: They did the first DNA test of his evidence in 1989, 30 years ago. 58:15 [SPEAKER_02]: They have all the funds now that they could want. 58:23 [SPEAKER_02]: in state and local sources. 58:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Why isn't this going faster as predators, as survivors die? 58:35 [SPEAKER_02]: As other guys are potentially still out on the street, as wrongly convicted men are in jail. 58:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Potentially are still have their reputation 58:50 [SPEAKER_02]: could exonerate them for why isn't this going quicker? 58:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I just, I don't know, I don't know. 59:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to know how long that is, I was born in that year. 59:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And 1989. 59:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So for as long as I've been alive, they've been trying to work on this. 59:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, everybody's known about inside police. 59:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I say everybody, but those in sex crimes, 59:20 [SPEAKER_02]: had a good relationship with Dr. being knew he was saving this evidence. 59:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that there was quite an awareness about how he saved everything on to slides and tubes, but I do know in our investigation that so far I know of the first DNA test of what he saved was in 1989 59:50 [SPEAKER_02]: who they had been investigating for about a decade. 59:54 [SPEAKER_02]: They knew who it was. 59:55 [SPEAKER_02]: They had been trailing him, but they couldn't get him with older forensic technology because of various reasons he wore gloves and a mask and he was hurt to catch. 60:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And so they finally got him with Dr. B's evidence. 60:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what's interesting is that over the time period 60:20 [SPEAKER_02]: to pinpoint bad guys as DNA technology has progressed. 60:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Not only get the bad guys, but also exonerate the innocent ones. 60:31 [SPEAKER_02]: The next year, in 1990, they arrest a guy, Scott Shellenberger, then had a sex crimes at the time, thought for sure that this was a bad guy because the victim had, even though she had a pillowcase 60:49 [SPEAKER_02]: They she thought it was her ex-boyfriend and she told prosecutors and he thought it was his plan dunk case. 61:00 [SPEAKER_02]: The guy said, it's not me. 61:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not me and pointed to this crazy story. 61:04 [SPEAKER_02]: This other guy who was just arrested and then ends up in a cell next to him in Baltimore County 61:15 [SPEAKER_02]: could you please use this new technology and test the DNA and sure enough it ends up exonerating the guy who is arrested and convicting the other guy. 61:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And Schellenberger admits had that not been the case. 61:33 [SPEAKER_02]: How do he not tested the DNA? 61:35 [SPEAKER_02]: The seller guy may have 61:36 [SPEAKER_02]: been in prison for many years, and fast forward to 2002, this man named Bernard Webster. 61:46 [SPEAKER_02]: He had been arrested when he was a teenager, convicted of rape, and tells him he spent about 19 years prison. 61:56 [SPEAKER_02]: had been trying to get somebody to test his DNA in the case, test the DNA from the rape kid. 62:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Baltimore County police said there was no evidence that remained his defense lawyer, Michelle Natherkai, who was the head of the Unicense Project in Maryland, finds a strange mention of slides in medical slides. 62:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And 62:20 [SPEAKER_02]: the medical reports for the victim and calls that GBMC and finds out that the slides are still around, has some tested and Bernard is finally released and the real perpetrator who went on to commit other crimes. 62:36 [SPEAKER_02]: is finally arrested. 62:39 [SPEAKER_02]: That is, I think, a really important point that can't be overstated is that these slides have the power to convict the guilty to prevent crimes, but also to exonerate the innocent. 62:56 [SPEAKER_03]: But the public seems so tentative, 62:58 [SPEAKER_03]: at holding the police department accountable. 63:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's important that the public understand how critical it is for people to know, for example, Sister Kathy says next DNA has been available for years. 63:15 [SPEAKER_03]: It was not processed until three years ago and we're still being told they don't have results. 63:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And the reluctance when the part of the police department is very nebulous, the reason they keep giving me is that the longer we wait, the more advanced the technology is and the smaller amount of DNA we need to get a hit. 63:36 [SPEAKER_03]: That's fine. 63:38 [SPEAKER_03]: But do something. 63:39 [SPEAKER_03]: We've got no information and to say that it takes a long time. 63:43 [SPEAKER_03]: We've had off-ram labs in Texas. 63:46 [SPEAKER_03]: They've solved the most cold cases internationally and nationally. 63:50 [SPEAKER_03]: They've offered to work with the Baltimore County Police for nothing. 63:54 [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't even get a response. 63:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So there is a reason why Baltimore County Police Department 64:03 [SPEAKER_03]: and very ambiguous about the processing of DNA, and I think we need to say 64:11 [SPEAKER_03]: do it or get off the pot because this is ridiculous. 64:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I was just curious in your own reporting and talking to survivors, some just listening to your podcast is how I found out about some of the survivors talking about Baltimore County police officers, how many women have you spoken to who have been abused, have talked about being abused 64:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to think about that, but I've turned over 10 names to the Baltimore County Police Department of Officers who were living back then, who were part of facilitating the abuse, going to the school, bringing politicians to the school. 65:00 [SPEAKER_03]: abusing girls in a park, James Scenal when Robert Zimmerman and they are both dead. 65:06 [SPEAKER_03]: There are others, but myself have turned in probably 10 names, a number of the names were given to me by the living wife of one of the perpetrators. 65:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was a captain. 65:21 [SPEAKER_03]: All of these guys knew Moscow and spent time with him. 65:26 [SPEAKER_03]: A number of them came to the school and were seen at the school. 65:30 [SPEAKER_03]: He did ride along with a number of these police officers. 65:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we believe they were part of his network. 65:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I have talked to a survivor who was prostituted in a motel. 65:44 [SPEAKER_03]: and she was bound and gagged and Joseph Maskel sat at the door and took money. 65:51 [SPEAKER_03]: And she knows that there were police officers involved in that. 65:56 [SPEAKER_03]: She remembers hearing Maskel say, did you bring the cuffs? 66:01 [SPEAKER_03]: And the guy said, they're in the cruiser. 66:04 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would say that probably a police officer, but I don't have names, and if these women can't remember who these people were, then we're guessing, but I have been able to give the police names that I was given from the ex-wife of one of the perpetrators who were his gang. 66:29 [SPEAKER_03]: None of this was in the keeper, right? 66:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is my question. 66:33 [SPEAKER_02]: The keeper has definitely focused on clergy. 66:37 [SPEAKER_02]: The clergy, how big was the larger. 66:43 [SPEAKER_03]: ring of abusers. 66:46 [SPEAKER_03]: In my mind, I look at it as a venn diagram with if you couldn't picture three holo hoops intersecting in the middle because we're talking and this was in the capers. 66:58 [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking business people. 66:59 [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking law enforcement. 67:02 [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking high ranking politicians 67:06 [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about nuns, priests, brothers. 67:11 [SPEAKER_03]: I believe Maskell was one of the masterminds of a very large network on the East Coast. 67:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And we've heard stories about Edgar Davidson, his wife would see that there was always 400 miles added when he would be away. 67:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And the odometer would be 400 miles. 67:29 [SPEAKER_03]: So where was he going for 67:32 [SPEAKER_03]: 400 miles every so often. 67:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I believe some girls were trafficked across state lines, but I believe that he was part of a much larger network. 67:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know how big that was. 67:43 [SPEAKER_03]: It seems in more tendrils the story has. 67:47 [SPEAKER_03]: the more unbelievable it becomes. 67:50 [SPEAKER_03]: But then I believe it because I believe the survivors who were coming forward and saying this happened to me in Virginia, this happened to me in Pennsylvania. 68:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say pretty expansive. 68:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And 68:04 [SPEAKER_03]: There were some very smart sociopaths running the show, who had no remorse, no feelings about anybody except themselves, and so that's why it was effective. 68:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody was sorry. 68:15 [SPEAKER_02]: The Attorney General's Office, when they came out with the report, the big, oh my gosh, moment was that there were more of 68:29 [SPEAKER_02]: and more than 600 survivors, getting back to just the doctor's evidence, I have to wonder whether any of those hundred and fifty perpetrators, again, knowing how serial the sex offenders are and reoffending just whether some of the 68:51 [SPEAKER_02]: them will show up in some of this evidence. 68:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And this is some of the last remaining only remaining evidence in the Baltimore region because there was a policy of destruction in these kind of cases, both in the county places, well, in the city police destroyed evidence as well. 69:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And to extent, we don't know how much was destroyed. 69:19 [SPEAKER_02]: in Hurricane, but they had horrible evidence retention policy. 69:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So this puts ever more importance in my mind that Attorney General's report of really being transparent about the testing of the evidence that remains in Baltimore County. 69:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I am hopeful, but as far as that evidence being in the doctor slides, frankly, I'm not optimistic because the 150 clergy members, only 43 of them, have not been acknowledged by the Archdiocese 70:02 [SPEAKER_03]: They are in a document called the Bishops Accountability.org, and it gives the priest assignments and history of the 40 that are new names, 30 you're dead. 70:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, in my experience in talking with couple hundred survivors, 70:21 [SPEAKER_03]: mostly women, they were so terrified that they didn't even tell anybody until more recently, so they were not going to go and get a rape kit done. 70:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not feeling optimistic that 70:36 [SPEAKER_03]: many if there might be very few in the doctor's slides that are going to be from any of the survivors I know. 70:48 [SPEAKER_03]: That's not to say that for repeat offenders, for example, clergy or whoever, 70:55 [SPEAKER_03]: later on in the 70s, 80s, 90s that somebody didn't go to a hospital and get a rape kit done, but they were so threatened and so brainwashed into thinking that this mascal created a dependency on him. 71:10 [SPEAKER_03]: He would bring in a more violent abuser into his office, and the girl had to go to mascal for safety, which is the way pedophiles work. 71:19 [SPEAKER_03]: So they created 71:21 [SPEAKER_03]: so that their prey are dependent on them for safety when a worse predator is present. 71:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So there were drugs, hypnosis, guns, all kinds of threats made, pictures taken and shown to the girls. 71:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I doubt if any of them reported any of this to either a hospital or the police. 71:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're absolutely right. 71:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 71:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a very important point to make is that actually most rape sexual offenses are not reported to police and they are most perpetrated. 71:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Most of them are perpetrated by people we know, but we know, though, is that these perpetrators don't stop and they change M.O. 72:03 [SPEAKER_02]: way more often than we thought. 72:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Even the police thought researchers are now finding out testing and researching all of this 72:13 [SPEAKER_02]: that these serial purbs change them of from strangers to known acquaintances far more often. 72:21 [SPEAKER_02]: They change the type of victim, the ages, the race, all sorts of characteristics. 72:27 [SPEAKER_02]: They really are more of opportunity and predators of opportunity and some instances. 72:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And the case that we're focusing on the case of Alicia Carter is a perfect example. 72:43 [SPEAKER_02]: of that and how her case was solved even though none of her DNA was in the doctor's office. 72:55 [SPEAKER_02]: She never made it to the doctor, but it was because her perpetrator was outed in the doctor's 73:12 [SPEAKER_02]: where she was attacked and stabbed to death, other women went to the doctor's office. 73:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And those cases provided a picture of a perpetrator who prayed upon women in this area. 73:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And so her case, when detectives started looking at it again after we started asking questions about it, they, 73:42 [SPEAKER_02]: looked at her case and so yeah there is a lot of similarity between these other cases around where she was found in Goucher College. 73:52 [SPEAKER_02]: and detective Bataglia then went to interview the perpetrator who had already confessed to these other crimes and whose DNA was linked to all these crimes and he confessed. 74:06 [SPEAKER_02]: He confessed. 74:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So people talk even though there was no DNA in these cases and Alicia Carter's case are 74:18 [SPEAKER_02]: the survivors from Kiyo, people do talk. 74:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can show, they are perpetrators and similar crimes, if they show up and any of these other cases if the perpetrator or show up and any other cases, that pins them. 74:37 [SPEAKER_02]: and many cases as a perpetrator. 74:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Now it's a little tricky because in some cases they'll say it was consensual how to consensual relationship and that will be their defense. 74:50 [SPEAKER_02]: But if it's of a child or of a relative and there's more of an investigation that shows no actually it wasn't consensual then there's still a way of closing the case, I think. 75:06 [SPEAKER_02]: kind of actions that I have heard describe by the survivors at KEO are not things that would happen in a vacuum. 75:19 [SPEAKER_02]: They are things that would behavior that continues for 75:25 [SPEAKER_02]: In many cases, these serial perpetrators do it for years. 75:30 [SPEAKER_02]: That is a question that I and many have as whether they continued 75:40 [SPEAKER_02]: in the Baltimore region, whether they were in Baltimore City or in Baltimore County, offenders don't stick to their own jurisdiction. 75:50 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're in the city, you can go offend in the county and vice versa. 75:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So could some of the victims went gone to see the doctor? 75:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 76:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 76:01 [SPEAKER_02]: We won't know until it's tested and reported. 76:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Right now, however, we have no idea 76:10 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know except for very basic numbers that 50 cases were tested and that kind of thing. 76:20 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what exactly is happening. 76:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully one day soon we will. 76:27 [SPEAKER_02]: There are 2,252 women are men who went to see the doctor's office at GBMC 76:40 [SPEAKER_02]: to have a rape exam. 76:43 [SPEAKER_02]: They went there because of a crime that was committed against them. 76:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So 76:52 [SPEAKER_02]: what has happened as a result? 76:55 [SPEAKER_02]: What do we know? 76:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Why aren't these tested? 76:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand that. 77:00 [SPEAKER_02]: There is the response by some law enforcement that just because you have a rape exam, doesn't mean a crime was committed against you. 77:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's fine. 77:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people have rape exams and police can't prove 77:16 [SPEAKER_02]: that there was a crime committed against them. 77:19 [SPEAKER_02]: But you cannot least investigate and test what you can. 77:23 [SPEAKER_02]: If there are police reports attached to this DNA, if somebody has come in and said, I was raped and they went to the hospital to get an exam, that DNA should have been tested many years ago. 77:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, because we know offenders don't stop. 77:46 [SPEAKER_02]: working on behalf of, I'll say it, the predators and not the survivors. 77:53 [SPEAKER_02]: You are protecting the predators. 77:55 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not protecting the survivors or other women out in the community. 78:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Catherine, where are the remaining rape kits now? 78:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Where literally are they being stored? 78:14 [SPEAKER_02]: these slides that the doctor saved are still at the hospital. 78:20 [SPEAKER_02]: There are roughly 1,500 cases that are still at the hospital. 78:25 [SPEAKER_02]: The police have been filing subpoenas to, 78:30 [SPEAKER_02]: get the evidence from the hospital they've obtained about 500 cases. 78:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Probably thousands of slides because he saved several slides per case. 78:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So the police right now and headquarters are about 500 cases. 78:46 [SPEAKER_01]: As of late 2023, police have communicated that they would be pulling and testing the remaining test kits approximately 1,400 of them and would test all eligible cases by the end of 78:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And we know from the test results that have come back that there are unknown serial predators. 79:08 [SPEAKER_02]: There have been hits among the cases. 79:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So the same DNA profile is turning up in multiple cases. 79:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So we know that there are unknown predators out there. 79:21 [SPEAKER_02]: There have been stranger rape cases in which they have developed stranger unknown DNA profiles. 79:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And so they're going police are doing some genealogy testing trying to identify who these guys are. 79:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Because they're not connecting with anybody already in the FBI DNA database. 79:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Police were able to identify the unknown serial killer. 79:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Through fingerprints, James William Scheib Sr. was arrested in August 2023, for allegedly raping five women between 1978 and 1986, and is now awaiting trial. 80:04 [SPEAKER_01]: The DNA saved by the doctor helped connect him to five cases. 80:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Police had arrested Shipe seeing your several times before and had taken his fingerprints. 80:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But the cases proceeded DNA sample requirements. 80:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And his DNA was never uploaded into the system. 80:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Shipe was a trucker. 80:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And police are now looking to see if he may be connected to other cases. 80:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Does that seem paradoxical to anybody else besides me that 80:33 [SPEAKER_03]: The county has been reluctant to test kits, and now the county is subpoenaing the kits from the hospital, the very same police department. 80:45 [SPEAKER_03]: To me, it makes me wonder, that's a red flag to me. 80:49 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not an independent, it's not the FBI who's doing it. 80:53 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not state police, it's the very same police department that we know some of its members were predators. 81:01 [SPEAKER_03]: and can they be selective about which kids they, like I don't know how kids are identified, but to me if I had to go to a hospital because I was raped and a police officer came into the hospital and took a report. 81:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And I knew whom my abuser was and gave that name. 81:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Does that report go along with the kit? 81:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Or does that report go someplace else to disappear or stay depending on whose name I gave? 81:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't trust anybody. 81:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a problem. 81:32 [SPEAKER_02]: you have heard all of these accounts from people who have suffered unspeakable horror from these perpetrators. 81:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And you don't trust. 81:44 [SPEAKER_02]: The survivor's don't trust the process. 81:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm general. 81:47 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not rocket science, the virus don't trust. 81:50 [SPEAKER_02]: They have a big trust problem. 81:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So that puts the onus on police and other investigators to be very transparent 82:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can say that in the state of Maryland has a backlog of right now, it's about 5,000 cases. 82:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So all of these police departments have backloged, rape case at the state's going through right now. 82:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And the state has put out a number and a website for victims who have these 82:32 [SPEAKER_02]: their evidence is that includes some of the newer Baltimore County rape kits as well as Baltimore City and everywhere else across the state. 82:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to share that number at the end and website. 82:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So if anybody has cases that they want to follow up on, they can reach out to you. 82:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So Baltimore County has not exactly set up a website or. 82:55 [SPEAKER_02]: shared any information about this project online, but I have reached out to them and ask them can I share a phone number of the SVU so that if somebody has a case before 1997 and they want to follow up on it, can they reach out to the SVU and they gave me a number and so I want to share that as well. 83:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And I of course would like to talk to them. 83:22 [SPEAKER_03]: What is a cost to process one 83:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It cost about $1,000 to process a kit and it can be even less than that if you get a deal with one of these private contractors it depends but it's around $1,000 and I think that is a very important point that we as journalists and many ambassador you always follow the money right it's always important to look at the money and one excuse that 83:56 [SPEAKER_02]: local governments across the country have given for not testing this evidence and very brutal felony crimes is that they haven't had the money to do it. 84:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And when you compare the money that it costs to test to the societal cost, researchers have actually come up and calculated the 84:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It is several times more expensive to not test and investigate these cases. 84:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So our for example, 84:34 [SPEAKER_02]: one rape case, cost society $240,000, that is cost of the judicial system, cost to the victim, her work, his work, and productivity, that's cost of the perpetrator, and his productivity and being in jail and all of that. 84:54 [SPEAKER_02]: When murder, it's about 8 million. 84:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And the Justice Department has really gotten into trying to advertise this other cost that police departments and local governments need to consider when they're thinking about testing this evidence or trying to say don't just think about the cost of processing 85:15 [SPEAKER_02]: these rapids think about the cost of not doing it. 85:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Department of Justice officials have done a road show to various police departments and have this timeline. 85:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And the cost of not testing that burst rate could, which could have added the serial perpetrator and put them in jail and prevented all these other crimes, that was at least a million and a half. 85:53 [SPEAKER_02]: The cost to test that one kit would have been, but the time may be 1500, something like that. 85:59 [SPEAKER_02]: So just in Baltimore County that exonerated guy, Bernard Webster, the man who was exonerated, 86:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It cost $1.7 million to house him and destroy his 20s, 30s and some of his 40s. 86:17 [SPEAKER_02]: What if they had tested that evidence earlier? 86:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It could have saved him in the state a lot more money. 86:24 [SPEAKER_02]: They had just spent a couple thousand dollars. 86:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So cost is really important. 86:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I think to look at that. 86:30 [SPEAKER_02]: All of this evidence that the doctor protected and saved for decades is now starting to move over to the Baltimore County Police Department. 86:44 [SPEAKER_02]: At the same time when survivors in Baltimore County, Baltimore City are coming out and publicly accusing some old Baltimore County police officers of really horrible crimes. 87:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that makes me wonder about a conflict of interest and really appreciate if 87:12 [SPEAKER_02]: The Baltimore County police could be more transparent about what is happening. 87:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is something that the survivors have asked for. 87:27 [SPEAKER_02]: They want to have more transparency. 87:30 [SPEAKER_02]: They also want other people at the table to look over this process. 87:38 [SPEAKER_01]: The Maryland State Legislature passed a new law in 2023 that protects the evidence from destruction for 75 years and requires police to treat the samples saved by the doctor as rape kit evidence. 87:53 [SPEAKER_02]: But I have to say, as a journalist, you always try to separate your self in a way to the story and also me personally as a documentary filmmaker investigative reporter, I tend to do my stories and not talk about them in public like I'm doing right now. 88:18 [SPEAKER_02]: We wait until the end, but 88:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that I don't have that option. 88:24 [SPEAKER_02]: In this case, ethically, I think it's important when you have this kind of evidence that is so life-changing and these kind of allegations at the same time in time really as of the essence. 88:40 [SPEAKER_02]: We need to address this and make it public about what's happening in the stakes of the DNA. 88:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's important too because each person that we've interviewed, every survivor has talked about their abuse between these priests and the ones who talk about these police officers just for me to hear that the very organization who had police officers abuse these victims are going to now want this evidence. 89:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the very organization who would be held accountable. 89:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the archdiocese of Baltimore were to be getting that information. 89:22 [SPEAKER_01]: We all would be holding flags up and torches up at the archdiocese of Baltimore, but that this is a similar organization who was involved in this massive pedophile ring that Father Masqua was a part of and it's just crazy for me to believe that after all this time now that they're asking for this information and they're going to get it. 89:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's going to be in their hands. 89:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And there are people in police. 89:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I know there are really hard-working dedicated detectives who have heard this and are probably horrified and very much want to show all of the hard work and are really hard working and don't want this cloud over them. 90:08 [SPEAKER_02]: That, you know, if I were a bunch of public relations for Baltimore County police, I'd be like, 90:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You need to come out and show that you don't support any kind of crime, just like how to have communications for our stices. 90:25 [SPEAKER_02]: You want to show how that was then. 90:27 [SPEAKER_02]: This is now we're interested in getting any perpetrators. 90:32 [SPEAKER_02]: That's our goal. 90:33 [SPEAKER_02]: They could be part of police. 90:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be part of clergy. 90:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever we are interested in catching the back guys. 90:42 [SPEAKER_02]: and we're going to be transparent about how we do that at the same time protecting our investigative process to not jeopardize the crime, but it is so important to be transparent right now about what's happening because of what the survivors are saying. 91:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Who do you think should be responsible for oversight as this process of moving cases and evidence to from the hospital to the police department? 91:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I know you said that subpoenas were involved, but does that mean a judge needs to oversee it? 91:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Does that mean the police department oversees it? 91:17 [SPEAKER_03]: The hospital? 91:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it a joint venture? 91:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Who's like, I think you should oversee it? 91:21 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's not going to happen. 91:23 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I would love for that to happen. 91:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to be part of some task force that in that has happened in other cities and Cleveland, for example, they have had journalists and researchers be part of this coal case testing in the whole spirit of learning from this DNA data and improving how they investigate and catch the bad guys in the future. 91:52 [SPEAKER_02]: and also educating the journalists because I don't know everything. 91:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot to learn and by sitting at the table and learning from this process, it will help my reporting. 92:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So Baltimore County has had a task force before of 92:08 [SPEAKER_02]: criminal justice experts from outside. 92:11 [SPEAKER_02]: They went through a major reform process in 2019 after they were found to have been destroying evidence and doing some other questionable practices in terms of investigating these kinds of cases. 92:26 [SPEAKER_02]: They had a big task force and they oversaw some of the investigations in Baltimore County police. 92:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And that lasted for a good couple of years and so it could be something like that. 92:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Why couldn't they just recuse themselves and ask the FBI to do the investigation? 92:47 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, I have no faith in people trying to protect their money, and an organization who will protect it at the cost of a liability, and if those slides show how many police officers 93:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine the liability that the very police department would have? 93:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So just the fact that is the case, it just seems to me like the obvious answer would be that they can't have voice in this. 93:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They need to recuse themselves. 93:22 [SPEAKER_02]: The Justice Department has gone in to police departments to oversee 93:27 [SPEAKER_02]: investigations of these kinds of crimes. 93:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So they actually, that was part of the federal investigation into the Baltimore City police. 93:35 [SPEAKER_02]: They looked into their SVU and found a whole host of issues in how they investigated these crimes. 93:43 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't looking for serial perpetrators. 93:46 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't testing the evidence. 93:48 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't treating victims with respect. 93:51 [SPEAKER_02]: They basically weren't doing what they should do to find the bad guys. 93:55 [SPEAKER_02]: and Baltimore City Police completely reformed its SVU. 94:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, that is something that could be done in Baltimore County. 94:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Recently, the Justice Department announced that they're doing oversight of the New York City SVU. 94:14 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that the Attorney General's report 94:17 [SPEAKER_02]: about his team's investigation and to clergy abuse that his team has been working on for the last four years. 94:27 [SPEAKER_02]: That's hopefully going to be out in the coming weeks. 94:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And I and everybody else is very curious as to who is going to be named in the report. 94:38 [SPEAKER_02]: which clergy members will be named, but also this much bigger ring of perpetrators that the survivors have spoken about, who enabled the clergy to do this? 94:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Who looked the other way? 94:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Are they gonna be named in the report? 94:58 [SPEAKER_02]: everybody, including myself, is very curious about this. 95:03 [SPEAKER_02]: The task that was undertaken by the Attorney General's office was enormous just to look at the clergy. 95:12 [SPEAKER_02]: That is hard for any investigator. 95:15 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really curious if they were able 95:17 [SPEAKER_02]: to get into any of these other abusers that you guys and survivors have been really have found really important to put out into the open. 95:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, their name's going to be in the report. 95:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 95:34 [SPEAKER_01]: The Attorney General's Office did not investigate potential enablers outside of the archdiocese. 95:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Catherine, first of all, I want to thank you for the time that you spent with us today, but a lot of our listeners and later your viewers will want to know more about what they should do if they would like to follow up on if a rape kit was performed, what they can do to find out the status, and any recommendations you have for survivors of abuse, 96:05 [SPEAKER_03]: who have not yet reported to the Attorney General. 96:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I would say if you've not yet reported to the Attorney General, definitely report to the Attorney General into authorities, I think that is important. 96:20 [SPEAKER_02]: There is a certain strength and numbers. 96:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would definitely recommend doing that. 96:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And in terms of where to reach out if you are interested in your case, if you are in Maryland, you can contact an advocate at the Maryland Coalition against sexual assault organization. 96:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Notification at M. 97:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you are an Baltimore County, if you went to the Greater Baltimore Medical Center before 1997, and you may have seen Dr. B, or someone else in the right care center, you can contact the Baltimore County Police Department Special Victims Unit, Cole K. Squad at 410-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420-420 97:28 [SPEAKER_02]: 8-8-7-2-2-3. 97:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Survivors who went to GBMC and have cold cases before 1998 can now also reach out to turn around and not just please. 97:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Turn around is a survivor's advocacy group, which is helping survivors with their cold case in Baltimore County. 97:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Their phone number in Baltimore County is 410-377-81-1-1. 98:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Katherine, for coming onto the podcast. 98:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's really important that we are highlighting the police's involvement in all of this. 98:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And I am really curious to see the finished attorney general report. 98:16 [SPEAKER_01]: If there are no names of police officers, then that's going to be an incomplete report. 98:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we've talked to people who have told us about police officers being involved. 98:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And we have names of some of those police officers, so if the report doesn't show those names that it's incomplete and then I think the next attorney general for Maryland needs to take it back up and redo it because it wasn't done right in my opinion. 98:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Once the attorney general reports released, the report mentioned several witnesses being abused by police and police cars being present. 99:04 [SPEAKER_01]: However, the investigation did not name officers. 99:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They did not investigate beyond the scope of the Archdiocese of Baltimore. 99:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning law enforcement officers and politicians were not involved in the investigation. 99:19 [SPEAKER_01]: The report did mention several instances. 99:22 [SPEAKER_01]: When law enforcement cited on behalf of the Archdiocese of Baltimore to the detriment of children in their safety. 99:31 [SPEAKER_01]: The Attorney General summarized this, about law enforcement's involvement, across all investigations. 99:40 [SPEAKER_01]: While this investigation has focused on the archdiocese, it is also evident in the response by police and prosecutors that in many instances that they were deferential to the church and uninterested in probing, what church leaders knew and when. 99:57 [SPEAKER_01]: In one instance, a woman reported that she was sexually abused by maschool, magnes, and a police officer. 100:10 [SPEAKER_01]: The third time she was called, she hit in a stairwell. 100:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Magnus came and brought her to Maskel's office. 100:18 [SPEAKER_01]: She described an instance with Magnus also sexually abused her with Maskel, and an unidentified man in uniform, being present in the office. 100:28 [SPEAKER_01]: In another instance, a woman reported that she was repeatedly sexually abused by a police officer, and later by Magnus, when she was 11 years old, in attending St. Clement, Magnus took her from a dance, giving her the officer's name. 100:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Took her to his car, and sexually abused her. 100:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Magnus performed an apparent exorcism, in which he cut her with a crucifix, forced her to perform oral sex on him, and the officer, sexually assaulted her with a crucifix, and sat on her back while she was sexually abused by the officer. 101:05 [SPEAKER_01]: She indicated that this event was followed by a series of further sexual abuse by Magnus, the officer, and the others, outlocal hotels. 101:16 [SPEAKER_01]: There were numerous interviews conducted of masquerals victims and witnesses, with evidence of abuse occurring a single moment, Kiyo, and other locations. 101:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the accounts of abuse are intertwined with the murder of Kathy Seznak. 101:31 [SPEAKER_01]: The keepers, details some of this, in attempts to suggest that Seznak's murder was related to her knowing about masquerals abuse. 101:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Some victims report being taken to SESNIC's body. 101:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Some victims are led to abuse by many different individuals, including other priests, police officers, and civilians. 101:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the details of abuse have been placed on social media by a group of former students at KEO. 102:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Many of the accounts contain similar details, such as use of religion as part of the sexual acts, use of the confessional, ink block tests, the use of soda to administer a drug, hypnosis, in questions about sexual history. 102:19 [SPEAKER_01]: In 1998, another victim reported to the Archdiocese that she was sexually abused by Masquale for several years in the early 1970s. 102:30 [SPEAKER_01]: She said that soon after arriving at Kio High School, Masquale editor Soda while at a school picnic, he then led her away from the group to a man waiting in a police car. 102:41 [SPEAKER_01]: This man, who she later identified as Magnus, then sexually assaulted her. 102:48 [SPEAKER_01]: She said that over the next three years, Magnus recall her to his office and hypnotize her and that she would wake up later with her clothes on differently than when she arrived. 102:58 [SPEAKER_01]: She said he often had her sit on his lap, would unbutton her shirt, and would put his hands on her breasts. 103:05 [SPEAKER_01]: She also said that Maskel was threatened her with a gun, including putting the gun into her mouth. 103:12 [SPEAKER_01]: She complained about Maskel to her guidance counselor, and a teacher, but neither took any action. 103:41 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this video, thank you very much for watching this 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