0:08 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching. 0:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Hi everybody. 0:29 [SPEAKER_02]: This is Gemma. 0:30 [SPEAKER_02]: We know you're going to love this one. 0:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I know I've said this before that this is an individual that you've all been asking for, and we finally were able to schedule my really good special friend that actually started all of this, this is the man that you saw in the very first moments of the keepers. 0:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So tonight we're going to be talking to Tom Nujer. 0:53 [SPEAKER_02]: who is in Michigan and Shane and I are at our home, Tom, we want to welcome you to our yield. 1:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, thank you very much and thank both of you for the good work you're doing here. 1:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Keeping this story not only a lot, but in our faces and refusing to let it go, that's a gift. 1:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody, so I say thank you. 1:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you because we're actually going to be Shane and I are looking forward the next year to pursuing information about some of the other motors and we're going to talk to you about that tonight as well because we know that something that you've done a lot of research about and interesting. 1:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But the first question I would like to ask you is, why was the first time you 1:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I had been for five years in the 1980s, and you write a feature writer at the Baltimore Sun. 1:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a keen interest, although I no longer worked there. 1:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a keen interest in the paper and I read it every day. 2:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, as soon as I saw their stories begin to end, I knew the reporters personally that I'd worked with them before. 2:12 [SPEAKER_01]: and some questions about possible abuse. 2:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I immediately became riveted and I began to read their coverage. 2:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They came up with a new story. 2:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And I did that partly because I was playing the song. 2:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And because I knew those guys. 2:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And also because I was raised Irish Catholic old school. 2:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't remember, Gemma, and I think you escaped to something tells me are you three years not in that world. 2:38 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the one, the nun hit the layer, and what I call the sisters of the sacred misery. 2:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we had to not get the rulers. 2:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I was fortunate enough not to be hit on the knuckles with the rulers, but yeah, we I was in Catholic school for 12 years. 2:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love to joke about it now gave me wonderful things. 2:57 [SPEAKER_01]: They're the reason I was able to raise a family four fabulous daughters. 3:01 [SPEAKER_01]: They taught me Latin. 3:02 [SPEAKER_01]: They taught in height by high school. 3:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We translated the immediate senior year of high school. 3:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So some Catholics feel I'm the bad guy that's trying to go after the church on abuse and on murder of the non-influent. 3:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm eternally grateful that everything is mixed and complex. 3:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And there were wonderful people in my Catholic high school upbringing who gave me great gifts. 3:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Such as language, Latin, and it's because they taught us that if we would take the trouble to learn how words were, 3:36 [SPEAKER_01]: We would have enormous opportunity down the rape in a variety of different fields, and so I became a newspaper guy, and I made a living, and now I've been five glorious granddaughters, and two grandsons, and if I'm not right in you, which is what I like. 3:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm running down there to spoil them with candies and toys and hundreds of them all I can give me. 4:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean I don't also understand all of the repression that was it work. 4:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It bears directly all we're going to talk about because the question of what was wrong with thought of basketball allegedly and why all of this abuse was taking place. 4:14 [SPEAKER_01]: He's deeply wound up in that repression. 4:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I jokingly, I like to say, I was raised by the sisters of the sacred misery. 4:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You were following, I just want to clarify for our listeners, the reporters were by our own friend who was still living. 4:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And then who was his partner, Joe, Joe, I know, I think it's Nebraska, but go ahead. 4:35 [SPEAKER_02]: They're the two that you were reading their articles and that feature interest in the case. 4:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because these guys did a good job, they, and I'm sure they met some internal resistance at the newspaper. 4:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe you may. 4:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I worked there. 4:50 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm not going to get on my hobby horse. 4:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I walked out of the Baltimore Sun with no pension. 4:58 [SPEAKER_01]: My point being, 4:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They were censoring the fact that the entire city was run by a criminal, political McCain, and they were doing everything from secretly buying up condemned buildings, and then ensuring them under disguised identities, and then collecting millions at their own, in whole grown, downtown, USF and G.I.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.EE 5:22 [SPEAKER_01]: The cops in the FBI knew, which younger swiss counts, these stolen bodies were going to. 5:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The mayor's nickname at the police bar, I kid you not, was Willy the Torch. 5:36 [SPEAKER_01]: His first name was William, and we think we can fill in the blanks historically, and they would joke at the police bar. 5:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I found people who wanted to blow the whistle and I dug. 5:47 [SPEAKER_01]: When I finally had everything together to prove that had the place, this great miracle with salvation, that because we built this wonderful harbour place and the National Aquarium beside it, we're bringing tourists by the millions in fear and saving Baltimore. 6:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry. 6:03 [SPEAKER_01]: The developers carried the money out in wheelbarrow. 6:06 [SPEAKER_01]: The schools got worse, the ghetto is still horrible. 6:10 [SPEAKER_01]: There are mothers every weekend, you know, all the story here. 6:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was being run by criminals. 6:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And about the fourth time I said, I'm not just going to write a story. 6:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll take you to my source. 6:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. 6:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Managing editor, never been done in journalism, get in the car. 6:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You can, you can sit with me and talk to the guy at the aquarium who will explain to you how they ducked all the books and the bonds and kept everything off the record and so on, but still managed to use public money. 6:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And how does the game that led to the clinician of all of that retail merchandising at that ridiculous other place where a nice cream cone cost $6.00. 6:51 [SPEAKER_01]: When all of this came down, you can see my motivation. 6:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I wound up saying, oh, if that nun's mother in a school where there were allegations going on of this kind of abuse that Jane Doe and Jane Row and other witnesses are reporting, the boy, I was on that like a heart and I'll just end it by saying, 7:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That led me to work my nerve up, and by 1990, I guess probably 97. 7:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I was making my first typical to temp. 7:16 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the great days of my life was, what room are you the legendary historic detective? 7:22 [SPEAKER_01]: the work for years as you want the investigation that told the little incident in the roskey uh huh we don't talk to the recorder's go away this is ongoing investigation and he told several other journalists that who had 7:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, he would be, he worked on it for 15, 20 years and he had, he was an encyclopedia of the nuns murder. 7:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I swallowed art and stared half silly. 7:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I drove out to Essex where I knew he lived and I parked back to Little Debbie Sprint. 7:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I would be up car was driving and I marched up to the door and I did the best Irish song and dance. 8:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I was capable of his eyes lit up and he said, you want to pump the coffee? 8:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I heard that, my eyes lit up. 8:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we didn't have to know that we were in his garage, and he was pulling open cabinet doors and file cabinets, and showing me autopsy photos of the poor nuns. 8:22 [SPEAKER_01]: court to go and her body, it's positioning on the little, my little hill, the little bounded dirt at the jump at the in lands down the backyard where he must have. 8:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And he even spent over the next 10 years. 8:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I would get a Baltimore frequent land which spent hours trying I'd bring him all the new information I had and he would try his hardest to see if he could add insight. 8:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was out of that that I've 8:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I gradually put together along with the work I did with you and some of the people that you recommended I try and talk to and I went through the yearbooks of Kio and all of that long journey back and forth until I was able to put it together in a strong enough story that although the suddenly fear is to go there I'd be city paper editor of that day I give that guy a world of credit he said what's the me what you're in order you're not going crazy here 9:17 [SPEAKER_01]: We're running it and they ran it on the front who killed sister Kathy and as you have been sharing the foundation stone of a lot of what's our later. 9:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to come back to that. 9:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Tom, can you tell us about your background in career? 9:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that you've mentioned the winner to journalism, but what kind of led you into that? 9:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I guess I grew up in an Irish family. 9:37 [SPEAKER_01]: My mom would be quoting Dickens. 9:40 [SPEAKER_01]: She had a high school degree that wonderful woman and she would be, I would watch a Christmas story on television. 9:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's his name? 9:46 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll show you a guy that they're squeegee. 9:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 9:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the spirit and Christmas pass. 9:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And few would infect you with this. 9:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she would quote John Macefield. 9:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We must go down to the sea again to the swirling ocean and the ships and so on and I want to in the seventh grade. 10:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I recited that poem and I've English poet Macefield and one little poetry whatever it was a box of candy in the best poem of the day. 10:14 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 10:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 10:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 10:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 10:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 10:54 [SPEAKER_00]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4-point star rating on trust pilot. 11:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 11:04 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 11:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 11:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Start your journey today. 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So I knew I had that yearning. 11:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So I did some college reporting on the cowardly view, the paper at the University of Maryland, where I went. 11:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I had a child by then. 11:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had to pay the bill. 11:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So I started first two years after graduating in 1967. 11:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I joined Liberty Mutual in Washington, D.C. and my territory was born in Virginia and I sold insurance. 11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I sold businesses. 11:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I would go to a restaurant or a cup of outlet. 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Whizz cleaners is one of my clients. 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We can do better save you money. 11:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I made 1,000 percent of quota. 11:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I loved it. 11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I loved the challenge of it. 11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But my wife of that day and I then went a big banquet and oh, it was wonderful and they're selling all this stuff. 12:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It was great and they said here's a bonus. 12:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a gift so Sarah and I went to Miami and left the little kid 12:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, Sarah, are you brave enough to jump on the back of this? 12:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I promise I'll try not to wreck. 12:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And we went all around New Providence Island. 12:35 [SPEAKER_01]: We're all the turretships come in. 12:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But we found people living in huts in the most primitive circumstances. 12:43 [SPEAKER_01]: About 15 miles out of town. 12:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I can remember this day. 12:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The story I wrote. 12:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I called the Hima back door. 12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the world you don't see. 12:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked Mary. 12:53 [SPEAKER_01]: These were black people, or ones we found, and they were sitting cooking around an open fire. 12:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, you know, Mary, what do you do through most of the day? 13:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And she said to me, oh, easy. 13:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We're waiting for the government man with the check and quick food and the pot. 13:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And she went on to explain it's welfare society that they were in. 13:15 [SPEAKER_01]: The indigenous people and the slaves who wound up in the Bahamas are a separate story. 13:21 [SPEAKER_01]: On the front page right now because they hurricanes, the Dorian just went through there. 13:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And I got to get the button grants on Dorian, a plug. 13:28 [SPEAKER_01]: We've been kidnapped for days. 13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Give us a break, Dorian. 13:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a grants on where we went with that. 13:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I took that back and one of the one of the scariest days of my life. 13:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I walked it for them with limited mutual office where I was working to the on 15th Street to the Washington Post. 13:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I stood that lobby 10 minutes gulping and sweating with fear. 13:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I got on that elevator and up to the fifth floor and Mori Rosenstein, the travel editor. 13:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I never forgot this. 13:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I walked in sweat and blood and he was belly cordial. 14:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I said I was on a vacation I've written something here. 14:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Just for at the moment. 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I've written it. 14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know Would you at least take a look at it and maybe someday? 14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I already can put your phone number on there I'll call you back in a few days. 14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: He called back. 14:14 [SPEAKER_01]: He said this is pretty good. 14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He said you've got a neck for the lingo You seem like you're able to make things come alive. 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: This scene where the bunk glides like a silent shadow of the night And so on 14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: not bad to say, however, you don't know anything about journalism. 14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So you need to take this back and tell us what hotels we can stay in, well, how long do the typical stay last? 14:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Where do you rent the motorbike? 14:38 [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to go look into the worry that Mary and those people are that nobody will ever see is really. 14:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And one is complete. 14:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll give it another look at it. 14:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I did all that. 14:48 [SPEAKER_01]: One fine morning, a month or two later. 14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to have our little apartment in Beltsville, a suburb and a little Baltimore. 14:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure how the we were living in Beltsville outside Washington, D.C., where I was working at Liberty Visual. 15:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I go out to the front porch, spending morning, fingers crossed, I'm to hardly dare and to breathe and I've flipped through and there it is on the front of the travel section. 15:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And inside the wounded, the Bahamas that nobody sees, it was all there, and man, I was hooked. 15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So I called him back, and I knew I couldn't go to work there, had no experience. 15:29 [SPEAKER_01]: He told me, Tom, my advice is, go on down to the cradle of journalism, go to the North Carolina newspapers, the Charlotte Observatory, the Winston-Sale of Journal, the Rotally Observatory, go on down there and carry and clip with you everywhere you go. 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: These are sprinkled with Nate Malder. 15:47 [SPEAKER_01]: David Brickley came out. 15:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was Winston Salem. 15:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Hit those guys. 15:52 [SPEAKER_01]: There's big names on network nerds. 15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Started at papers like the Columbia South Carolina. 15:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a journal. 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So I went, I took a week off and worked. 16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I got the clip and he had any other stuff I had that I thought might help. 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And I drove the 16:08 [SPEAKER_01]: the roads in the byroads of North Carolina and they told me no in what's can say when they told me no in rally but in Charlotte I kindly editor said I got one spot the air you all like it might guy on a nine man sports staff 16:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But the first year, at least, you'll be covering high school swimming mates and a ping pong at the, at the old folks home, but it's a job and we'll give you $135 a week. 16:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, where do I sign up? 16:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, with one per vaso, if I do it, okay, and I learn to learn the damn business, will you let me switch to the new side? 16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: We will. 16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I said, I take your word. 16:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to call you on that. 16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So I worked well. 16:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, worked my butt off and I did okay. 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were pleased. 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And they switched me on over to news. 16:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And like the phone, I'll just give you one last anecdote because I love these. 17:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I love to tell this stuff, especially. 17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I taught journalism 15 years at the University of Rome. 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: You and being Maryland. 17:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I know. 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember that. 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 17:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You can imagine the joy I took 17:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But every night in sports, you stay till midnight usually, most days, because from baseball or game ends at 10-30, and then you're going to start writing the story. 17:20 [SPEAKER_01]: That's about twins and six as they headline, and if they're you write it, and by the time you're done, it's midnight 12-30, even 1 a.m. 17:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a great diner down the street. 17:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And some of us in sports us guys would go down to get a juicy cheeseburger on wine from the trip. 17:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But we enjoyed that thoroughly. 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I started to notice that there were these motorcycle guys coming in there and they had pagan jack and some tattoos in her old bit bushing deers and earrings scary. 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So once again, I watched them for a few nights and I said, 17:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you don't know me, but I'm telling you, I write for the paper and I got an opportunity to make you guys if I tell it like it is and don't paint you as monsters and fight a respect what you think you're doing out there on those big Harley choppers with your mom is on the back. 18:14 [SPEAKER_01]: will you let me write the profile and we'll put it in the paper. 18:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell the world who you really are. 18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: They bought it. 18:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a freelance photographer I lined up really good guy to great photos. 18:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the scale in my life. 18:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I meet him the first time they put me on the back of this word 85 miles an hour. 18:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hanging on to this pagan. 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: What I was like, here's the ass. 18:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, utterly, endless. 18:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I was never so frightened in my life, except when I jumped out of a plane on one of my first stories at the Voldemort Sun. 18:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 18:45 [SPEAKER_01]: On the last meeting I had with the big dog, the president of the club, if that's the right term. 18:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, Tom, I think you've been on Honorable Man. 18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe you're a matter of your words, but I am here to tell you something. 18:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We take something very seriously, and that's our moments. 18:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I know we had some parties out there in the woods where the momma's a couple of more dancing nerd there on the table. 19:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If that shit gets in the paper, I'm going to tell you Tom respectfully, and I said, we sure what. 19:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, if you disrespect that momma's, I'm going to put a bullet in your head. 19:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, believe it, your momma's are going to get so much respect you won't believe it. 19:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the reason I think this is German and hopefully a realistic answer to your question but not just an old man's ramblings, I took that story, I'm down in silence, I've been there a year and a half now, I put it on the flimp page, I sent it to everybody from the LA times and the guy at the duplicate free press said, 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, after they hired me, and that's when I began to work the big papers, including I have reported over the time for the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Chicago Good Tribune. 19:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It will not be inquiring or the Boston Globe, Mother Jones, and we will be here all night. 19:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to do it because I had so much freelance to do it. 20:00 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, girl, little or sweaters they wanted. 20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: My point is, that story didn't just, hey, I'm going to have a wild time and never. 20:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew. 20:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And the editor in Detroit said, when I got there, he said, Nuget, I read the first set of this story, which was, I think that said it was something like, you hear them before you can ever see them, like a swarm of enraged ornaments, climbing the question of a hill, you hear the sound of their engines, paragraph break in italics, 20:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And I read that and I yell at the manager at her hire him when did you go to the sun pay first. 20:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I work in Detroit for several years. 20:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I wrote a book for Norton W. W. Norton Deft at Buffalo Creek based on that gigantic one of the nation's worst coal mine related disasters in 73. 20:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I did a lot of work writing and stuff and some consulting out of that. 21:00 [SPEAKER_01]: In the end in 78 January of 78 I decided I needed to pay some more bills and my wife changed and I took what I had to the shot and they heard me I worked there until 83 when I walked out of there cool. 21:16 [SPEAKER_01]: No buyouts today. 21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I get a little paid to Amy. 21:20 [SPEAKER_01]: My wife Amy tells her come down today. 21:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all buyouts and my buyouts was go down to the cashiers window. 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You have $49 in extra sick pay that you can collect on the way to your car and I cried my eyes. 21:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I would and I said get in that car. 21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You're done crying. 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I said I cried like a baby. 21:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the end of five years of struggle and I was telling them. 21:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You shall not pass. 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I am not. 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: There are people getting killed in that city every night as a direct result of these illegal financial arrangements and every one of those editors down there and most of the borders Know it and they would rather say to drive I need to track and what and why people you've seen Baltimore's homicide rate as we speak That's not occurring in a vacuum 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And this robs here moving up in central America and ultimately on to the streets of New York and places like Baltimore, which means those guys who get shot every weekend. 22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey guys got shot last weekend and Baltimore too died. 22:23 [SPEAKER_01]: They got shot by no deterringer. 22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 22:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I ain't doing it. 22:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And man, I paid a price. 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So, what? 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been an all the journey. 22:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel very fortunate. 22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: privilege and I'm not even very mad anymore. 22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I I thank God if they're if he exists I want to say a great big thank you. 22:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to hell. 22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still here at my tender age of 76. 22:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But I am and I am determined to go fighting on this. 22:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I just did 50 hours of pro bono work for a black Marine in Mississippi who's the foreign land was stolen. 22:55 [SPEAKER_01]: The guy went over there and risked his life. 22:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And the power structure, then, and we've already published his op-ed, and this was a old pro bono lawyer called me, and we'll do L. But of course, I'll help. 23:05 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no pay. 23:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll worry about pay later. 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: This has got a lot's can. 23:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can hear us. 23:10 [SPEAKER_02]: If we go back a little bit and find, do you remember where you were living and working in November of 69, which was the time of Tappie's death? 23:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, I do. 23:23 [SPEAKER_01]: In November of 1969, I had just been hired a few days earlier at that free press job that I got after that motorcycle gang article. 23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I moved in the Charlotte Hibler to the morning paper of the Detroit Free Press in the last week of October 1969. 23:41 [SPEAKER_01]: On the day she vanished and was later found murdered, I would 23:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, were you aware of what was happening in Baltimore or that was not until later? 23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That was not until later for me. 23:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 23:58 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no way there was. 23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We knew. 23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, only in the next step. 24:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You recall that King had been assassinated in 1968. 24:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was still in college. 24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Baltimore had blown up and Ted Agno had gained so much fame by reading the riot act to black leaders. 24:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You're stood by a college. 24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You did nothing and you people burned the city. 24:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Why? 24:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Nixon picked up, picked up Agno as his vice president in the United States. 24:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 24:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Sixth and eight election. 24:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew Baltimore in that broad general way and I knew the Catholic Church. 24:29 [SPEAKER_01]: thing. 24:29 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. 24:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But I was. 24:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It would been years later before I was drawn in because your cat is murder. 24:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 24:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So you and Amy has how many children at that time. 24:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Amy and I have three children now. 24:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I never remember. 24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: They're wonderful. 24:43 [SPEAKER_01]: My daughter, 18 years. 24:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 24:47 [SPEAKER_01]: My daughter, Tady, is an R and a wonderful nurse. 24:50 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I'm going into her. 24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a back-to-step volunteer teaching writing that Thornapple manner and nursing 24:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And I went when my daughter Katie was an RN to care and for patients at the tender care nurse and I went over there for a year and over every few days and all we broke fabulous stories about the residents and put on a little newspaper, we did a story about an old woman to owe wonderful and she had been as a young firebrand, driving 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: speed up old stock cars on good tracks all over Michigan in the 50s and 60s. 25:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And here's this old wonderful old lady and she had a ball and she got out and taken an improvement by God if they were going into the turn at 85 miles an hour I was going in woman you got it 25:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And we would write that up and pick a photo and oh, everybody had a ball and I love that. 25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going back to that that's violent here that's not to money either, but I wouldn't miss it. 25:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope I get a few years of that I can share the joy of that was the spirit behind all of this. 25:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my second other bread is about to become an accountant, maybe with the FBI, she just got her finance degree at University of Chicago and they now nudges in Seattle, and her husband, here's a fairly high-muckity much software engineer at Google. 26:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have two little wonderful boys and then test is a geology engineer when people do a building like a high rise or an equipment building. 26:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Cess is on a team that goes in and makes riddle. 26:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He'll leap the groundwater there. 26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Follow the air and all that's meant to her. 26:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Tom, what was your situation when the dough row case hit the news? 26:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, then that's 1995 and by then I am I have just completed my 14 year as a journalism instructor in the fancy term adjoice confessor 26:44 [SPEAKER_01]: way of wage labor is more like it, but I did it, 14 years. 26:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But I left in 94. 26:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And by 95, I was engaged in the struggle, I did full time freelance. 26:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is all a little bit serious that sounded into me, so I'm going to go up a little bit and have fun with this. 27:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I worked for eight years at the full people magazine as a national screener. 27:06 [SPEAKER_01]: The phone hit ring, we've got a problem in North Carolina, get to the airport. 27:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd go to the airport, 27:14 [SPEAKER_01]: and then they would take all the reporting I did and I do that for eight years at the height of which two wonderful things occurred during this time. 27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: First Frank Sinatra's armed bodyguards threw me out of the Long Island Colosseum physically. 27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I managed to get this dress in one and I said, Mr. Sinatra, you just said that you supported the President Reggings invasion of Grenada. 27:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you elaborate our readers with 26 million readers at 27:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Who was a star? 27:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Who was just a gun and anger here? 27:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Lock me. 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We're now going, get back here. 27:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Get up out of here. 27:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What's the door in my dressing room? 27:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Tom, we're answering the question about where you were during the Do Rochase. 27:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I know it was during that time that you actually met with Jean, Jean Do, Jean Wayne, or... All right, she's allowed me to clean all of this many times. 28:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I made the call. 28:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember sequence exactly, but I think I learned 28:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Then a cop, or maybe it was when the guy's at the sun that who she was. 28:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Small over there with my heart and my right. 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm interested in this and I'm at the fourth quarter. 28:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been in a bit to get a recorder. 28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I can help. 28:27 [SPEAKER_01]: She said, come on. 28:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be happy to talk to you. 28:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I went over there for exhausting hours. 28:32 [SPEAKER_01]: There was something going on a family gathering or something. 28:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we wanted sitting on the floor and the hallway that led into the laundry room. 28:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be told her story, and within, of course, within 20 minutes, she was sobbing and beating it warm with his fists and telling me things that were hard to believe. 28:52 [SPEAKER_01]: After four hours, I had a ton of information, and I knew that something real had to be at the heart of it, and so I had again been in earnest to start digging. 29:03 [SPEAKER_01]: all the material and I was I think I was more adjusted than she was I could barely hold my head up it was so you've done this it was so really and emotional and so long wow I think was where it started for me and it was after that but I've been eventually rich but Romer and got him to come right to you up that's the photos and all of that. 29:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So that lead then to can you explain I know this story because I was with you, but can you explain to our listeners how the who killed Mr. Kathy story actually developed and how and why it ended up in the city paper true. 29:42 [SPEAKER_02]: What motivated you to begin writing that thing because that's whatever that he recognizes when you're sitting in the attic. 29:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And how many words was that there was a newspaper for it. 29:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It was 6,000 word long. 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That you were here in listener. 29:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He would really like this. 29:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when we did the keepers, the part of it, it didn't matter. 30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Ryan White, the director. 30:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 30:02 [SPEAKER_01]: That's in the city. 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, said to me, Tom, John, denim. 30:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm saying it. 30:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I know. 30:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 30:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's long to be taking the film. 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: We want you to pick up the pick up that city paper over there with this monster size story. 30:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And we want you to read it as dramatically and feeling late and take your time from beginning to end. 30:21 [SPEAKER_01]: That's it must have taken the elsewhere half an hour and 35 minutes. 30:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, I just put the end of that and he said you're damn right we've done this many times and it is really exhausted that was in the point here's the 30 point we've done and John said and let's let's have this whale home historical anglic on my God, I am very old like Ryan turned white and I turned to him. 30:47 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it, John? 30:47 [SPEAKER_01]: What's wrong? 30:48 [SPEAKER_01]: He said Tom, I know what was wrong with me. 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I am so sorry, but you're going to have to do it again. 30:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, you know, can we, let's take a break and get like a coke and get some children? 30:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They said, oh, he said, why don't we have to do it again? 31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, he said, time you have a great big white, no hair sticking out of your nose. 31:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, yeah, and it simply won't do. 31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So this, I like to joke and turn our 31:18 [SPEAKER_01]: nature at being being restigated reporter. 31:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm standing up in the attic and it takes me five minutes to get a grip on this hair and then I got to pull it out and it hurt like hell material running out of a ration going 31:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're finally full the hair and a little bit of flesh out of my nose fall back on the chair and I and take they give me a 10 minute break and we read the whole damn thing over again. 31:42 [SPEAKER_01]: That's this real trouble with investigative journalism after get it right. 31:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, tell us how it happened. 31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll be scoring a melody because I'm probably a bipolar neurotic. 31:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We doesn't know how to let go of anything. 31:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And once I sang my tape into it in 95, I worked on it some times for weeks at a time. 32:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, for a day at a time. 32:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes, if I had an hour, I'd get on a damn born and I'd push that and I went, I flew back to Baltimore. 32:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I did it 10 times when my home in Michigan. 32:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I would stay in the little cheap economic lodge that I had picked out, or the Mike Lentel. 32:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You ever spend a night in the six sides of a few bucks, but it's cheap. 32:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would eat hamburgers and try to save money because I paid all of the expenses myself. 32:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Plain fair, cabs, whatever it took. 32:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to hustle up money up in addition to feeding my family and so on. 32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But if I had my teeth in that, I'm not going to let go. 32:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I went to Pittsburgh for a week. 32:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I hung out with her, the nun, with Sister Kathy's friend, the cousins of my own heartbreaking stories about what happened when the police failed to deal with it, and their family looked hanging at all of it. 33:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I went to her tombstone. 33:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you guys been to where she's buried? 33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I have not yet. 33:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Not yet. 33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's quite moving. 33:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It's on the side of the hill. 33:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks down on the Mananga Hilo River and her father is 10. 33:16 [SPEAKER_01]: He'll hit you a father like I mean, I promised I will not blubber here. 33:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I sure I have to say this as carefully as I can. 33:24 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are a father and you stand like I did. 33:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And their sister Kathy, it's just a simple stone, and it says, here lies the sister Kathy says, Nick, oh, none. 33:33 [SPEAKER_01]: The school's supposed to load a day. 33:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And then 10 feet up the slope, here lies Joseph's best Nick in the postal work, the family man, and they're like, eight, 10 feet apart. 33:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm quick, crying there. 33:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And here's why. 33:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Who cares you? 33:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Sister Kathy's cousin, I sit with him all afternoon, he starts crying. 33:54 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, time, this is so hard-breaking. 33:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, I don't even know how to tell you. 34:00 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, we all began to live in fear of Joe. 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Sister Kathy's father, but not because he was angry or because he was Mean-spelded or anything because he would say desperate if he saw him coming home Yet here comes Sister Kathy's father and we know what it is and he would be embarrassed and look at the floor But then he would say to you if they're back down at Baltimore this weekend I'm off of Monday's holiday. 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I got three days guys. 34:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I need gas money 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: and they would give it to him. 34:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And he would grab a loan to Baltimore, and carrying her picture, he would knock on door. 34:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever seen this woman ever seen me? 34:40 [SPEAKER_01]: No, Chris. 34:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And he did it for years, and it was too much. 34:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And too difficult to go up against that. 34:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's on the hill. 34:47 [SPEAKER_01]: He's feet above her. 34:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 34:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He's a mother to be five minutes. 34:54 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 34:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And I got a car. 34:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And I came back and I said, 34:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't let go of this, so I won't say to believe this 20 years. 35:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Often on, most of it all, of course, I had to be a husband all the time to run money at so. 35:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But every time I could... 35:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we got going, you started your group and I've already gone to those meetings and meeting with people like Abbey Schab and then I interviewed lots of witnesses that will trace the Lancaster and I worked my way through probably based partly on the list. 35:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you gave me and you right, I was able to gradually do these interviews. 35:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And that day, day by day over years and years. 35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I made an internal commitment. 35:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Nurture, you will either get this done, or you will be six feet under. 35:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that was in the Marine Corps. 35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It isn't, can you take the hill? 35:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You either going to take the hill, or you won't be back. 35:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Bye, guys. 35:54 [SPEAKER_01]: My advice is take the hill, and they usually do. 35:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, then, thanks for your efforts, Jen and I, as you always want to, I know what you did. 36:04 [SPEAKER_01]: By bringing all those people together, you gradually wound up bringing the reporter from Huntington Post to Columbia, and that led to more people joining the group. 36:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a hop-in-ton post story I'm convinced that persuaded the people's group and their funders, who either their capitalization people or to invest, but once that went national like that, and she did a good job, it was a good story, and it went national, I think the big boys at places like Netflix will willing to, 36:37 [SPEAKER_01]: He considered the idea of doing this, which meant taking a risk, angry Catholics, and his millions of Americans are no small stopping block if you didn't do this, but to get credit they didn't. 36:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say in support of you, and you didn't say this part, but I'm going to say it, once you finish that story. 36:57 [SPEAKER_02]: You sent that story to the Sunpapers, to the Washington Post, and to the New York Times, and they were all scared to death because of what that what your story who killed South 37:15 [SPEAKER_02]: that help frustrating it was when you it we'd go all the way up to the editor and then the editor would say no there's too many legal issues here and when you decided to go with the city paper it was a smart move but that wasn't right because since then yeah some papers in the Washington Post and the New York Times can't get enough of the key posts. 37:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So you just have to credit now you just have to quite it for what you tried to do with that story. 37:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Because it will not light that they said no to you. 37:49 [SPEAKER_02]: The city paper was an underground. 37:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to the left more liberal. 37:54 [SPEAKER_02]: and they were happy to do it, but it shouldn't have had to happen that way, because you worked your butt off trying to get the big newspapers to pick it off. 38:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So, thank you so much for that. 38:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you did deserve the credit for that. 38:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But when I read it, then I get uneasy when anybody says that they think so nice, because let me go back to humor. 38:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the day, probably the worst single moment. 38:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought the woman they had to go at the sun, and I was fond of it. 38:23 [SPEAKER_01]: another editor and it made it to have the chain and then it happened. 38:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I came home here on the top of the afternoon and it went up and my God, can you remember? 38:33 [SPEAKER_01]: There's still the days when you had a telephone answering machine. 38:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I kept it at ancient history but I hit the button on my telephone answering machine and that woman that editor's horse said 38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: She probably was too embarrassed to want to talk. 38:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I got a message which was essentially this. 38:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The time it's me, you'll think the time, yeah. 38:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll just get to the point. 38:53 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not doing the story. 38:54 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no chance. 38:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So you better go elsewhere. 38:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to look click. 38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Went from, it could go Wednesday too. 39:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not doing it. 39:13 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching
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