0:08 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching. 0:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to get started. 0:31 [SPEAKER_02]: The first question is for Dr. Lee Richman, and Dr. Richman, as you all remember, was the teacher of Joseph Moscow when he was at Loyola. 0:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And the first question for Dr. Lee is, 0:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you remember about Mascals Boat? 0:54 [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned that he had a boat and that maybe you went out on the boat. 0:59 [SPEAKER_02]: In the keeper cage that's deep bonking all that says, there's no boat. 1:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know anything about the boat, Lee? 1:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I do, but it was medical's boat. 1:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It was mine. 1:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It was your boat. 1:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It was my boat, and I had a boat, and it was unplugged forward. 1:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And Mascals said that he knew something about boats and when I first bought the boat, I didn't know anything much about boats. 1:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So I went out on the boat exactly once went to him and he was showing me some of the things regarding 1:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So glad you avoided all the masks. 1:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I could not a little bit to that. 1:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Masks will either had a boat or used a boat that was called the Queen of Hearts. 1:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was in one of them marinos in Dondock. 1:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And he either used this boat that belongs to a friend named Bill. 1:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, he did take girls out of one of the boat and a lot of bad stuff happened out there, including inappropriate photographs, drugs, other men, 2:05 [SPEAKER_02]: getting involved with these girls who didn't know what was going on. 2:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So we even mentioned to somebody that he had to be careful because people were telling orening about girls going out on the boat. 2:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks, Lee. 2:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you one more, Lee. 2:21 [SPEAKER_02]: This is about actually his studies. 2:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Was he a candidate who were a doctor in education degree? 2:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Was he like everything there, but his dissertation, can you give us an idea of what he actually had in terms of degrees? 2:37 [SPEAKER_02]: As far as I know, he had a mischievous degree in psychology throughout the state university. 2:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Like connection with him at Hopkins was that at the time he came to Hopkins, I was director of the program at Hopkins and counseling. 2:53 [SPEAKER_02]: somebody new here from Loyola, professor at Loyola, new again, her name was Beatrice Sorlos at the time the director of the counseling program at Loyola, the left Loyola, he actually died and Joseph Maskell took over at the counseling program at Loyola. 3:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Sarlers, he could be admitted to a program at Hopkins, and he had all of the credentials, the academic credentials, to do so. 3:24 [SPEAKER_02]: He was admitted not to a doctoral program, but to a certificate of events, studies program, up against it, about avid-god group programming counseling at the time. 3:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So he was not a candidate for a doctor's degree. 3:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 3:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Lee, when you had him as a student, was it at Hopkins and Loyola or I never had him as a student at Loyola, I only knew a bit of Hopkins. 3:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I did not go to Loyola until after he was no longer anywhere around when I went Loyola. 3:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 3:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I was directly in the program at Hopkins, and then years later, actually 10 years later, I was, I switched school so much to Loyola. 4:07 [SPEAKER_02]: More reasons to have nothing whatsoever to do with Joe's with us. 4:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 4:11 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to come back to you. 4:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Our Malekki brothers are here. 4:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Dan and Dyer role to rejoices brothers. 4:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And I have a question for them. 4:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's pretty basic. 4:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any 4:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It's Pat and Darrell. 4:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry. 4:29 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a, no, we have no updates whatsoever. 4:34 [SPEAKER_03]: a couple of years ago, we met with two FBI agents at my brother's house, and they were, I don't want to say surprise, but they couldn't believe that we were in contact with any updates, and from the FBI's, and since then, we have been contacted by them. 4:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're a question, no, we have no. 4:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me just ask you your opinion, do you think Moscow was involved in Joyce's murder? 4:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 5:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Sharon Schmidt was running late and is not able to be with us tonight, but there was a question from Amy and the question was a good one and it is do you or your mom know what happened to all the photos in the album. 5:20 [SPEAKER_02]: could there have been clues in who the murderer had been in those textures like the guys all together in a photo. 5:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And Sharon says she absolutely has no idea where the pictures are or what they were. 5:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a dead end for right now. 5:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 5:40 [SPEAKER_02]: This question is going to be for 5:48 [SPEAKER_02]: This question is from Nancy Kimble, Doug Calsky. 5:52 [SPEAKER_02]: The question for Donna Michelle and Teresa do any of you or the other survivors remember somebody named Brother Bob? 6:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a brother Bob, is that Teresa? 6:07 [SPEAKER_02]: That was me, Teresa, but okay. 6:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And is Donna here? 6:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here. 6:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Can't say for sure that I give. 6:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you remember somebody being referred to as brother Bob? 6:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, okay, and Michelle, how about you? 6:25 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't. 6:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm gonna keep with the survivors for a minute. 6:32 [SPEAKER_02]: This question is for Mary D.A.s. 6:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Did any of the survivors ever say anything to the school nurse, Mrs. Stockford? 6:41 [SPEAKER_02]: about what was going on or having interactions with her during this term. 6:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I was frequently caught to ask to report to the nurses and the nurse would typically tell me that school wanted to see me. 6:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Tom's father mask would be waiting in the nurse's office and take me down to his office. 7:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I never told the nurse because I was scared to help. 7:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Very scared. 7:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I have an answer also for that. 7:10 [SPEAKER_02]: But, is that child going to have a child? 7:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 7:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I really feel like she was complicit, whether consciously or subconsciously, because I can remember being called also to the health suede or the nurse's office and then having father magnets come down and draw the curtain with me in there and nothing was ever set. 7:32 [SPEAKER_02]: She never entertained or asked why they're. 7:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there was a bit of simplicity there. 7:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Michelle, can I ask you to clarify like, sir, you went there because you were called there because you weren't feeling well and actually I had called. 7:51 [SPEAKER_02]: my desk ran, they called my desk ran to sit with me. 7:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And in the interim, the nurse had called Southern Magnus and father Magnus had my friend Donna, she told her to leave and he closed the curtain. 8:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, I don't have that memory of what happened after that in there, but I do know that happened more than words. 8:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But if he came into the health suite behind the curtain with you, and I was lying in the bed with the curtain around me. 8:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't exactly the nurse's office, but it was the health suite. 8:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 8:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry. 8:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry to miss you. 8:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would be called over head. 8:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was 8:41 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't make me be man, and her sitting at a little death, and just they get down the horse. 8:51 [SPEAKER_01]: She would say, just go, she told you to go. 8:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, get down the horse. 8:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I mean tears, no, trying to make every not like, and I'm reading down the horse. 9:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I can add that I've been told by really credible source that once a week, Mrs. Stappard, sister Judith, who was supposedly the dean, basketball, and whoever was the guidance counselor, would meet in the morning and they would go over the list of girls who were having either academic problems, 9:25 [SPEAKER_02]: health issues or emotional family problems and discuss them. 9:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he would walk away from there with his list for the week of vulnerable students that he could pray on. 9:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds to me like the other three adults are certainly complicit. 9:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 9:45 [SPEAKER_02]: The next question, if this is from Nancy, 9:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Doug Cowsky, do you think Russell kept quiet because she feared for her life and her families if she went to authorities? 9:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think I know there's been some controversy since the keepers came out about that. 10:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And 10:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I've always had a feeling or just my gut that she wasn't involved in a bad way. 10:15 [SPEAKER_02]: If she wasn't involved, I don't believe it was for something that she wanted to be of doing. 10:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I think they threatened her, but she was out here and Carol. 10:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I sold her that house and I knew I talked to one of her neighbors after she passed and she told me a story that Russell shared with her because they became both friends and she said that her shoulder or arm was broken when she was younger and it was never set. 10:46 [SPEAKER_02]: was never fixed, find that very odd. 10:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And anyone that knows who Russell was the time, she was the thoughtful about so many different things and was far as her health was concerned. 10:59 [SPEAKER_02]: She'd broken her arm. 11:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure she would have gone to the doctors or the hospital, whatever. 11:04 [SPEAKER_02]: To I've always felt, since I learned that, there's a possibility that he hurt her. 11:12 [SPEAKER_02]: He manhandled her. 11:14 [SPEAKER_02]: threatened her her life and maybe her families. 11:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And that may have kept her from saying anything. 11:22 [SPEAKER_02]: But I know there's been talk lately, maybe the last year or so that may not be true. 11:28 [SPEAKER_02]: That it may be she was involved further than I thought she would ever be. 11:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I just never felt that way. 11:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I never thought she would do anything to hurt anyone though. 11:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's disney feeling about her. 11:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Chris and I have talked about this several times because we've built new Russell, she's our teacher. 11:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was not what people were making her out to be. 11:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I see her as being somebody who would keep their mouth shut because they would have to decide between going to the police who were involved or protecting herself and her family. 12:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would have done the same thing. 12:11 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that there is an appellate court summary, but in which Jane discusses those who abuse her. 12:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Jan Marshall's name is in there, and then Jean later says it couldn't have been because she remembers her inner black habit. 12:26 [SPEAKER_02]: But if that did happen, I believe she was coerced into doing something that she would never have done on her own. 12:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's my opinion, and we don't know. 12:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and I can I say one other thing. 12:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, okay, so those of you who know who I am know that I'm a little strange that I've had some weird things happen in my life that I feel spiritual things the one and when I heard that about Russell I that night I was a straw I really was thinking something terrible. 13:02 [SPEAKER_02]: and I went to bed with thought in my mind saying to Russ, please give me a sign that you didn't do that, that you were involved that way. 13:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe if she was involved, it was because she had to be by course. 13:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I, and I will tell you the whole part of this because it will take you long, but I woke up in the morning and I saw a text from one of my customers and I wanted to see a house. 13:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And I looked at the address and I knew it was her house and it had just gone on the market that morning. 13:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't even something he was interested in. 13:36 [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted to see it that day. 13:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I saw the address, it was the house that she lived in where she passed away. 13:44 [SPEAKER_02]: She actually had moved her husband and moved out after she passed away. 13:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a new family in there. 13:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So I haven't, I wasn't really following her there. 13:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So I went to that house. 13:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And I asked, I did a video tape on it. 13:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I daughter was with me. 13:58 [SPEAKER_02]: We heard in the ways of stairs. 14:00 [SPEAKER_02]: My daughter freaked out and went right out the door. 14:02 [SPEAKER_02]: because she thought that was crazy. 14:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But I felt like she was there. 14:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And I felt like she said, no, I didn't do it. 14:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to know, or want you to be able to understand that was not me or that was that something I wanted to do. 14:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I hold on to. 14:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I really feel like she was talking to me. 14:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that sounds strange to some people, but it did happen, honestly. 14:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would not lie about something like that. 14:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just unbelievable when I saw that address. 14:30 [SPEAKER_02]: and even a picture of it, he texted me a picture of the house. 14:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So be in by it, by the way. 14:37 [SPEAKER_08]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 14:42 [SPEAKER_08]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 14:48 [SPEAKER_08]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 15:01 [SPEAKER_08]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 15:07 [SPEAKER_08]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 15:17 [SPEAKER_08]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 15:23 [SPEAKER_08]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 15:27 [SPEAKER_08]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 15:36 [SPEAKER_08]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 15:40 [SPEAKER_08]: Start your journey today. 15:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Never know, yeah, long people have a six cents that's really accurate. 15:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Lee, don't you think that people now. 15:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Cool and you saw the movie. 15:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay, I won't put you on the spot. 15:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the next question is a two parter for me. 16:01 [SPEAKER_02]: This is from my buddy, shella Mahoney, guys are and my name, a girl. 16:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And the question is, was it anticipated that Kathy and Russell would return in the fall to Kio of 69, I mean, any classes or activities in addition to their job at Western. 16:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So just to clarify, the answer is no, they were not going to come back to Kio for anything. 16:27 [SPEAKER_02]: and Kathy was teaching at Western High School, which was a girl's public high school in the city, and Russell was teaching right next door to their apartments at Rockland Junior High. 16:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So they were both established there teaching and at Western, the students didn't even know Kathy was a nun. 16:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them said they suspected because she just seemed to be 16:54 [SPEAKER_02]: less casual than some of the teachers were, and maybe wasn't as comfortable and daytime clothing because she was so used to being in a habit, but no, they both were going to be at those schools. 17:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I do know that because their requests to do this social experiment was declined 17:21 [SPEAKER_02]: before December, whether or not she was going to totally leave the conduct and not be a nun or whether she would go back. 17:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And she could have kept teaching that question, okay? 17:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 17:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that answers that from Showa and Renei. 17:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I just, if the was the woman who is just thinking instead of she at the spiritual experience, 17:46 [SPEAKER_02]: That's Chris. 17:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Russell's friend, Chris. 17:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 17:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if the Russell is or anything, but Russell is tapping Matthew's roommate. 17:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 17:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But I haven't experienced like that. 17:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just going to say it's not unusual. 17:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking as a psychologist. 18:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen many people. 18:03 [SPEAKER_02]: When you ask me, what do I believe about it? 18:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a thing for a psychology to believe anything at all. 18:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I just 18:13 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a non-ediporextrous sensory, so whoever said that should not feel in any way ought about a thing that experience. 18:21 [SPEAKER_02]: That happened to Chris a lot. 18:23 [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't just happen one time. 18:25 [SPEAKER_02]: She has shared a lot with me. 18:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm too much of a control freak and a realist to have that kind of stuff happen to me. 18:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't allow it to happen. 18:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to take a look now. 18:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not odd at all. 18:36 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not odd. 18:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 18:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Next question is for my. 18:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Some say that poop is behaving oddly out of guilt because he just loved Kathy, not because he harmed her. 18:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I am one of those people, as I believe he is lying and hiding way more and he is saying. 18:59 [SPEAKER_02]: In your opinion, does poop behave deceptively when you 19:03 [SPEAKER_02]: also could the vagina story have been an extravagant lie as he nearly looks like he was going to let something else slip. 19:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And I noted in the movie that he started to win Ryan White asked him if it was a picture. 19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: He said, no, it was a black and then he stopped and he went back and said, it was a heart-shaped newspaper. 19:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So Mike, we're interested in your take on his behavior. 19:32 [SPEAKER_06]: So, Coup, to me, he shows a lot of involuntary indicators, such as nodding his Ted yes when he's given a no answer and the opposite when he's giving a yes answer and shaking his head no. 19:46 [SPEAKER_06]: To me, the leaves I think he's more superior than anybody's talking to. 19:51 [SPEAKER_06]: He's steeples his hands a lot when he's talking, which means he makes like a church 20:00 [SPEAKER_06]: And that indicator is, say, I'm more superior than you listening to me. 20:03 [SPEAKER_06]: I know the facts I'm telling the truth. 20:05 [SPEAKER_06]: So he's got a lot of deceptive cues, E. K. It's down a lot. 20:10 [SPEAKER_06]: He, like I said, does the verbal message, does a mess, a physical gesture, a lot of that. 20:16 [SPEAKER_06]: This steepling of his hands is rubbing and ringing of his hands. 20:20 [SPEAKER_06]: his leading back is posture. 20:22 [SPEAKER_06]: He likes to ask a lot of questions as to how much information they know as out of the investigation, as he said once before, had they had they talked to his body. 20:35 [SPEAKER_06]: He wanted to know how far they've gone with him. 20:37 [SPEAKER_06]: He just said he hadn't talked to him in quite some time. 20:41 [SPEAKER_06]: But far as the vagina story, I can't believe that at all, I can't see if someone in an interrogation bringing that in and saying what it was first of all, if it was evidence, 20:57 [SPEAKER_06]: they wouldn't allow it out, it would be contaminated or whatever. 21:02 [SPEAKER_06]: Some anything could happen to it. 21:03 [SPEAKER_06]: So I can't see anything like that happen. 21:07 [SPEAKER_06]: I've been in instances before where they'll have a folder on the table and try to have a suspect and say hey, we have pictures of you doing the crime. 21:15 [SPEAKER_06]: And if you don't come full and tell us you did it, we're going to walk these pitches down to the judge down the hall and they go to take them and they'll pull them back and say, no, you can't see them. 21:25 [SPEAKER_06]: You have to confess first. 21:27 [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't believe that for a second. 21:29 [SPEAKER_06]: It could have been a ploy they did, nothing's out in possibility, but I don't believe it all. 21:34 [SPEAKER_06]: No. 21:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I did a little digging after Mike did that podcast may. 21:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty out there. 21:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So I first I got in touch with Captain John Barnold. 21:44 [SPEAKER_02]: It was in the key verse and it was hit as man. 21:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He was Baltimore County homicide. 21:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So Kube took the first polygraph and passed it. 21:56 [SPEAKER_02]: His friend Pete took a polygraph, but not the same day the next day. 22:02 [SPEAKER_02]: and passed it. 22:02 [SPEAKER_02]: They're wondering what happened in the 12 hours in between, okay, the next thing I did was I was very I asked Kub a lot of questions, it's hard for readcarn jerry now and I said to him, what about the second polygraph, he said to me, it was a rookie cop who didn't know what he was doing. 22:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And when they were, this polygraph was when Kathy was found. 22:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was not for a more city was ball to work out. 22:32 [SPEAKER_02]: You did the second one. 22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: We told me that when the guy finished, he said to Cube, either you don't trust me or you're hiding something. 22:41 [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, he didn't pass the second polygraph. 22:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Cube said to him, I don't think you know what you're doing. 22:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So it must be the first. 22:50 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, that officer went in a back room and came out with that whatever the newspaper route thing was and threw it across the table and Jerry swears by that story. 23:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that Baltimore County photograph was taken at the police station. 23:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Jerry was never at the 23:14 [SPEAKER_02]: There would have been no body parts at the police station first of all, so back didn't happen. 23:20 [SPEAKER_02]: He also swears that he's not making this up, but it happened. 23:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to know what his first sentence was when he said, no, it was a black. 23:31 [SPEAKER_02]: something. 23:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what he was calling it. 23:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So I told Dr. Captain Barnold, and he said, none of his men would have ever done anything like that. 23:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And Barnold has offered to help us. 23:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I talked to him every week. 23:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He looks, he lives in a retirement community and he's quite interested in helping now. 23:53 [SPEAKER_02]: He says it didn't happen and that nothing would have 24:01 [SPEAKER_02]: This next question, Mike, we're going to come back to you is for sure in the board. 24:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And Chris, do you think she kept quiet because she fared for her lives and her family if she went to the authorities? 24:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Gemma, I just sitting here and hearing things that I hadn't heard before when Chris was talking, I can't even imagine that Rental, 24:28 [SPEAKER_02]: would do anything other than I can't imagine half of what I've been hearing tonight. 24:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know if there was any doubt in the fact that Russell had no part of any of the evil. 24:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And if she was being quiet, it would have had to have been to protect somebody. 24:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't imagine her at any point time. 24:50 [SPEAKER_02]: are given in any shape or form and the only way that she would have been flying and I never heard her say one thing about it. 24:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I was only 18th time, but I've never suspected anything at all. 25:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Never knew anything was going on. 25:05 [SPEAKER_02]: But now that I look back, the questioning that the detective asked me on the warning after Kathy's disappearance, somebody had to know something in order to know the right question to ask me, could you share that again with us for those who might not have heard it the first time, what, not the one you got there to the apartment. 25:23 [SPEAKER_02]: When I got to the apartment the next day, I knew a head of time, Russ had told me that there was a detective that wanted to ask some questions. 25:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He asked me if anybody had ever done anything to me that I didn't want them to do at heal. 25:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was taken back by the question, because we were there to find out what happened to Kathy, and I didn't know why the questioning was being directed towards anything that could have happened to me. 25:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I had no clue at that point what they were asking. 25:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea what the questioning, why they were questioning me in that way. 26:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And now 50 years later, to look back and think that possibly Russell, I have two thoughts that possibly Russell would have 26:09 [SPEAKER_02]: should something to the detective, since I went to Kia, ask her if maybe someone had heard her. 26:15 [SPEAKER_02]: The second thing was that possibly the policeman who's asking me the questions, knew something and wanted to know how far I was involved. 26:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I didn't know which direction it was going in, but when I look at it down 50 years later, I don't know which way that questioning was. 26:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I was just taken back by the questioning, wanting to know why someone wanted to 26:39 [SPEAKER_02]: if anybody had hurt me, but looking back now and trying to see if Russell had any involvement in it, I still cannot believe. 26:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess because she was my best friend, and she was like a sister to me, I thought we shared everything and I thought that we were so close. 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I even went to Florida with her. 26:56 [SPEAKER_02]: She had given me a present as a Christmas present to go to Florida the next year to meet her family and go to her sister's graduation. 27:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't imagine anybody I was that close to being involved in anything like this to not ever having any kind of idea at all, not one inkling of anything that the chief was anything other than another victim and we located that detective and his daughter asked him some questions he's not wrote well he's very old. 27:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, so he wasn't clear about the conversation, but you told us, Sharon, on the podcast that Russell was standing near you when she talked to me. 27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she was near me the whole time because she'd asked me to come over first of all. 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew that I had told her to call me if she heard anything that the night before, which she called me. 27:52 [SPEAKER_02]: The next day when she called and said, could you come over the detectives would like to ask these questions? 27:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I said, we went right over. 27:59 [SPEAKER_02]: She was with me because she knew what was a very trying situation for everybody. 28:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I don't know what at the time I thought she was just being a support for me. 28:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had no idea on the questioning where that question came from. 28:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I did question her coming up with it at the time. 28:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I just thought that it was an odd question to be asking me when we were looking for a happy. 28:19 [SPEAKER_02]: But now it makes sense. 28:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It's looking bad, hindsight. 28:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that Kube and McKinney were still there and I've been pretty blunt asking him if he recollects that conversation because he was hiding or in a different room. 28:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He says he doesn't recollect it, he doesn't know what you're talking about. 28:40 [SPEAKER_02]: He was there not right next to me and he wasn't right. 28:43 [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't like Kathy was with me, but he was not right there that were several people in that apartment when I was there. 28:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I was standing in the middle of the living room and the detective was standing there as well. 28:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't sit down for any interview and Russ was there. 28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: There were people sitting on the sofa that were other people walking around. 29:01 [SPEAKER_02]: There was a couple of detectives that were in and out of the apartment coming and going doing what they're bestigating and Pete and Jerry were still there. 29:10 [SPEAKER_02]: they weren't right with me. 29:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they were the dining room or the kitchen or just a small apartment, but there were other people there milling around and I don't remember all of the details of that. 29:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I do remember what was that to be. 29:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember standing there. 29:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember what that detective looked like as far as what he was wearing. 29:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I still have the picture, my brain, but I don't know why that question was asked of me. 29:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know whether Russell said something to the policemen that I went to Kia when maybe she knows. 29:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where to originated. 29:39 [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing is that it wasn't like he took you to a private place to ask you the question. 29:43 [SPEAKER_02]: No, he did not. 29:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I was standing in the middle of the living room. 29:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember it. 29:48 [SPEAKER_02]: He still had a trench coat on. 29:49 [SPEAKER_02]: He had to cope just 29:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I still remember him, but I don't, it was brief. 29:56 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a 20 minute discussion or anything. 29:58 [SPEAKER_02]: He just asked me a few questions and he said, he had my name and number in my address. 30:02 [SPEAKER_02]: If he needed to get back to me or if you needed to ask me anything else, and that was the end of it. 30:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, when I shared with him what you said, and he said, I don't remember that. 30:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I also had heard, I think it's a new share, 30:19 [SPEAKER_02]: they drove back and forth between Evan and Bella and the apartment, like when it made me, yeah, I thought so to my knowledge in the morning when I got over there before the detective asked me any questions what they were there, I was there for before. 30:35 [SPEAKER_02]: The detective asked me questions, after we talked for a little bit, Russ and Jerry and Pete, we were talking about how the car was found and what was in the car, as far as the twig and the thread. 30:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And we talked about that quite a bit. 30:49 [SPEAKER_02]: We just passed she know where what could it mean it had to be symbolic because Kathy, everything she did was symbolic and had me get. 30:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we were trying to think why there could be two twigs for us was never mentioned the work of grass. 31:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't recall that at all. 31:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I recall the whole discussion as being around twigs and the thread and how Kathy must have been trying to get us a message and that she may be used. 31:15 [SPEAKER_02]: the thread for better or for a slip or something to configure across to let us know that it was had to do with somebody being religious and that it had something to do and that was the discussion we had. 31:27 [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that's interesting is that the car was taken out 31:32 [SPEAKER_02]: away very early to head on waiting to see your face where I say best. 31:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Sharon didn't even see the car before it was towed. 31:41 [SPEAKER_02]: It was towed not when a flat bed and it was not processed until after it was towed. 31:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's not typical. 31:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I've talked to an ex cop who said if there's evidence inside 31:59 [SPEAKER_02]: They either process it right there, take pictures, and we have no pictures of it actually at the apartment. 32:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I can see the part, I see the part of the morning, the car was gone by the time, well, I got there. 32:13 [SPEAKER_02]: The one picture that you all have seen from the keepers, that is not that's Kathy's car, but it was Photoshop. 32:21 [SPEAKER_02]: purposely by the filmmakers so that we could see where people claim they saw the car. 32:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a graphic design to help us understand that is not a picture of her car. 32:39 [SPEAKER_02]: where it was parked when it was found. 32:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So my conference said, if it's not processed at the scene, they wrap it in plastic wrap. 32:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they put it on a flat bed truck. 32:52 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't tow it with a tow book. 32:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was towed Dan by the shakerhead. 32:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It was towed by the back, the back end. 33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he's not sure, or the front end. 33:09 [SPEAKER_02]: police bay where they processed it there. 33:13 [SPEAKER_02]: There are things that were in the go ahead, Dan. 33:16 [SPEAKER_05]: The normal way in those days would have been from the back. 33:21 [SPEAKER_05]: But if they put it on a flat bed, they could get it there either way. 33:25 [SPEAKER_05]: One word or back. 33:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so it doesn't make sense to us that everything was shipped around and they still took pictures. 33:34 [SPEAKER_02]: The trash can we never have seen where the trash can is. 33:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Where is it? 33:38 [SPEAKER_02]: The cigarette butt that we thought was laying on the ground at the crime scene. 33:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, looks like the cigarette butt is in the back seat of the car. 33:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So, not even the investigation itself, I think. 33:50 [SPEAKER_02]: was not very well done and we don't know why isn't because some of the cops knew what was born or in and if you've seen the picture of the neighborhood the next morning there I've counted 30 some police cars. 34:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Why do 30 some police cars show up for a 26-year-old woman who's not even been missing for 24 hours. 34:12 [SPEAKER_02]: When I was there in the morning, there was discussion of what was in the car, the mulies, of one of the biggest things that I do remember in the discussion that morning was, they knew she had made it as far as mulies because the roles were in the car. 34:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was told when we were talking about it, I definitely remember them saying that the box of mulies, baked goods were on the seat. 34:37 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't on the floor. 34:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember floor being mentioned. 34:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I just remember they were on the seat. 34:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember that the discussion about the twig and the thread and the and they were twigs, they weren't leaves and it was definitely in the shape of a cross and they said that what could all of that mean she must be trying to tell us where she is and who has her animal. 34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: This was the discussion. 35:00 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a lot. 35:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew about the release baked goods before the we see, but asked me question. 35:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew what within the car. 35:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew how far she had made it. 35:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't. 35:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And to get back to your original question about knowing that when they got there to rushes apartment. 35:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that one of the first things they were going to do was to go back and see if she had car trouble by seeing if they could backtrack to the shopping center, to the heck company, to the hostels, to see in her car broke down. 35:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So I really didn't think that they went back out to see that. 35:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't Russell wouldn't have left because I know she told me she didn't want to leave the apartment in case she came home. 35:39 [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't want to be called to an empty apartment. 35:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So he doesn't recall a lot. 35:49 [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't leave it all at, but I do know that from what I remember Russ just from the discussion that very net warning, I thought it was Pete and Jerry had gone out to see if they could see if her par broke down. 36:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And then later on they went by walk. 36:07 [SPEAKER_02]: That part, I know, they had gone out for a walk and they found the car and then that's when they said that there was the twin and from the steering wheel and the box of mule bake was on the seat. 36:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the missing person report, which Dan has been amazing working with actually it's going to the whole missing person report is in the appendix of my books. 36:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So you've got to read the whole thing. 36:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it, it does not agree with anything that we're saying. 36:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't agree with the timeline. 36:38 [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't know if there's pages missing. 36:40 [SPEAKER_02]: It does not agree with who saw the car when. 36:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I said to him, why if you parked on the street, why wouldn't you've seen the car? 36:51 [SPEAKER_02]: We were running to get to Russell as fast as we could. 36:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Why didn't the cops see the car? 36:56 [SPEAKER_02]: The cops came at one thirty five. 37:00 [SPEAKER_02]: to take a missing person report. 37:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Why didn't he see it far? 37:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It was there. 37:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It was there. 37:05 [SPEAKER_02]: We have six neighbors down. 37:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Thrac your head, right? 37:08 [SPEAKER_02]: That said, they saw the cars are always 10, 30, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock. 37:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought to these people, they're still living. 37:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I was not told any of that when I got through the next day, we were talking about 37:21 [SPEAKER_02]: the car when they said they found the car. 37:23 [SPEAKER_02]: They said it was up the street. 37:25 [SPEAKER_02]: That was the description of where it was. 37:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't told that it was parked in an angle in that little bit of a driveway or street. 37:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I was told that it was up the street. 37:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It was up north and it was just right up the street and it was found around four o'clock. 37:38 [SPEAKER_02]: If the Newly Stocks was on the floor, that means it fell off the seat when it was towed. 37:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So why bother with those photographs? 37:47 [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't 37:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that part of it, I don't know why they'd say the Milly's box was on the seat when it wasn't on the seat. 37:53 [SPEAKER_02]: That confused me too when I saw the picture. 37:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though I knew that it would stage for the keepers, but now that was not staged. 38:01 [SPEAKER_02]: That was the actual only. 38:03 [SPEAKER_02]: That was Photoshop was the one photograph of Kathy's core. 38:11 [SPEAKER_02]: part in Lantern Court, which her apartment behind it. 38:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and they are, okay, they took a picture of a car from when it was processed in the police bay, and they flipped it around to make it match the perspective and the angle. 38:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you look at that photograph, 38:31 [SPEAKER_02]: The steering wheel is on the wrong side. 38:33 [SPEAKER_02]: It is life caroled our producer and the editor and they both said that is the only picture tripod media did anything with okay, was more problems than helped because everybody's saying this has been fixed. 38:51 [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't like purpose. 38:53 [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't realize that they flipped it over and that the steering wheel was on the wrong side. 38:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I hope this is making sense to everybody. 39:00 [SPEAKER_02]: But not the other pictures. 39:03 [SPEAKER_02]: All those other pictures were from when this car was processed after it was towed. 39:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 39:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Go find it. 39:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I never see it. 39:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I just heard what was the discussion that morning about finding the car and finding what type of message the Kathy was trying to give to us by the twigs and the thread. 39:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And we backtracked by saying, seeing the Muley's box, we knew she had made it to the at least to that store. 39:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I love somebody put the Muley's box there. 39:31 [SPEAKER_02]: They have to go to the police bay. 39:34 [SPEAKER_02]: How do we now? 39:35 [SPEAKER_02]: We can't trust anything right now. 39:37 [SPEAKER_02]: This 39:39 [SPEAKER_02]: which I was 30 years younger anyway. 39:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that whole scenario does not make sense. 39:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It also the missing person report says that the car was found sticking out of carriage court, which is further up the street by Kube and McKinion, say it was found in Lantern Court, which is directly 40:04 [SPEAKER_02]: and the people who were interviewed or mostly people who could have seen it, I'm Carridge-Cord. 40:11 [SPEAKER_02]: So, home of the car, I've talked to several people that remember all this, they're charming, gracious people in their 80s and 90s, they said they never heard anything, they didn't know anything was wrong until they got up the next morning and the neighborhood was full police officers. 40:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I something's not right, and I think it implicates more than one person. 40:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, we're going 40:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this question is a Labour one for Teresa. 40:45 [SPEAKER_02]: This is from Sam, Ketterman, our body young. 40:50 [SPEAKER_02]: We love Sam. 40:52 [SPEAKER_02]: When Dauro went to trial, did any police officers active or retired come forward to author Beverly Wallace, any supporting testimony or evidence? 41:06 [SPEAKER_02]: None that I know of, Beverly kept me going for him as to the status of the case and things that were going on. 41:14 [SPEAKER_02]: She never told me about any police officers coming forward. 41:19 [SPEAKER_02]: She told me there was about 30 jailed women that had come forward and offered their support to Angie, but no policeman now. 41:31 [SPEAKER_02]: But it really didn't even go to trial, right? 41:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, it didn't coherent that we lost on with the statual limitations. 41:39 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a pre-troll notion. 41:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't even get that far. 41:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So now we didn't have a troll. 41:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Theresa and I'm gonna come back to you in a minute. 41:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm interested in anybody listening as real quick wants to say what they think thing hanging off the steering wheel is. 41:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Now I will tell you that whole case opposite back in Robin Teele told me there was a yellow dread in the car. 42:07 [SPEAKER_02]: and Kathy was wearing a yellow sweater. 42:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And I read a report that Bob Irlinson sent me that said Harry Rummer, who is deceased, that he signed for a slip, a blue skirt, a yellow sweater, and one gloves. 42:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And another officer signed for a wedding ring, a school ring, and a watch. 42:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So the yellow thread makes sense just as an FYI. 42:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Does anybody want to say what they made me think or know that that we've tried to look at it up close. 42:49 [SPEAKER_02]: We can't figure it out. 42:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What it is anybody want to say what they think it might be? 42:54 [SPEAKER_02]: speak now or forever hold your I know I'm taking over but I think that's my job tonight. 43:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Gemma back at Kia at the time girls were discussing this and I overheard a conversation where someone bullet. 43:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It reminded them of some gift that had been given to Kathy symbolizing the twerking the road to Rhodes diverge in the yellow wood. 43:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why he's in the yellow street. 43:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And she hung it on her steering. 43:27 [SPEAKER_02]: turn signal to signal my having to make choices between roads, but that was just some speculation. 43:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I never found out if any of them's girls had actually given her that gear. 43:41 [SPEAKER_06]: What I think it might be is a lot of killers. 43:44 [SPEAKER_06]: What do you want to say? 43:44 [SPEAKER_06]: Serial killers, anyone like that, like to leave a little clue behind, and didn't they say that was that same branch, that same vegetation wasn't the same area, same area 43:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Mike, it is. 43:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Gary Trial said it was typical on the meditation where she was found. 44:02 [SPEAKER_06]: Like, read a lot of things where a lot of killers will leave behind a clue or serious, like a calling card or something they leave behind because I don't know how she would have had time to make that thing and hang it there. 44:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So it would be typical of her and if somebody knew her, 44:20 [SPEAKER_02]: they might even do it like one purpose to make it look like it would something she would do. 44:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 44:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought from the discussion that morning when we were talking that it was definitely 44:33 [SPEAKER_02]: the discussion went in the direction of it made being Kathy while she's being driven somewhere trying to give us the signal. 44:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the discussion and that's the way it went and we kept saying how symbolic she was that she would try to get us some kind of hit as to who was taking her and some way to find her. 44:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And the crock wake came up with a 45:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So that that was where the discussion went that morning from what do you remember who was part of the discussion? 45:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was rust and pee and Jerry and that was basically who we were speaking, who I was speaking to. 45:14 [SPEAKER_01]: We were reading it table and that was before the detective came to ask me questions they were discussing. 45:20 [SPEAKER_02]: finding the car, what was in it, and that was the big discussion that they were somewhat excited over the fact that they may be fined her with these signs that she was leaving. 45:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, when we went over to Carriage House with Kube, an avi-parked her car, the way this is in the 45:43 [SPEAKER_02]: He showed us how he opened the door and he said there was a long piece of dried grass. 45:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He did not talk about it being a twig or he said it was like a long piece of dried like sea grass. 46:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 46:01 [SPEAKER_02]: We, grass wasn't a word that I remember being used at all. 46:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember the word too quickly and some string and how she could have formed it made the cross out of it as they were driving and tried to do it secretly. 46:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, how I have the turn thing on on the other side. 46:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 46:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Now it doesn't make it much sense as it did then. 46:21 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think so either. 46:23 [SPEAKER_02]: That's determined. 46:25 [SPEAKER_02]: The cops might already know these answers. 46:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 46:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Where is it? 46:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Where is it? 46:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Now I wasn't written down as something being collected. 46:33 [SPEAKER_02]: They and the missing person reports that they found branches inside and outside of the car. 46:41 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't talk about anything being hung on that steering wheel. 46:46 [SPEAKER_04]: This is time. 46:47 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just wondering his goofy as Edgar was for that maybe. 46:51 [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't he thought about maybe driving her car maybe it was something he might have done. 46:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 46:58 [SPEAKER_04]: You saw how we played with that rubber band in the movies. 47:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Talk about trophies and check-in things like who has a bedroom with a stuff a bedroom just for stuff down in walls? 47:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 47:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be Tom. 47:10 [SPEAKER_02]: That's why we can't give up on this. 47:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 47:13 [SPEAKER_02]: We're back to you. 47:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And the question is from Erin Phelps, Dr. Richmond, what is your take on the possibility that Masco could have been involved with MK 47:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know who you're talking. 47:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Who's M. Gay-Oltre? 47:30 [SPEAKER_02]: OK, it's a CIA program in mind control. 47:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And several of the women who were abused by him were subjected to mind control experiments. 47:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And we have met a woman, she's not one here tonight, who was trafficked by Dr. Christian Richter, who was the gynecologist at Maskel, 47:55 [SPEAKER_02]: and he was an MK Ultra handler, and she was taken to NASA and some other universities where they were using mine control on children to train them to be spies. 48:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And we think that he had access to some of the MK Ultra Technique. 48:18 [SPEAKER_02]: It would not have been out of recent to think that he could have been just not what he had. 48:24 [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to know that when I knew him was long after this happened. 48:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And I knew him in a different capacity than most of you knew him. 48:34 [SPEAKER_02]: However, he was, there were some very odd things about him that I noticed when I knew him. 48:42 [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, why would it be, I have that much interest in guns, but yeah, that was one thing. 48:50 [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that I noticed is why it wasn't where because I read it from a son of paper that a sister was killed and I did not know Kathy I guess that's her name and all but I do know that mascal was digging in his cemetery and I did say that at the time that you made the keeper so that was puzzling to me. 49:13 [SPEAKER_02]: There's really he was a strange guy 49:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew him as a nice guy. 49:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm with that in quotes. 49:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that somebody sent a question about was he evil and I didn't see any evil when I knew him. 49:29 [SPEAKER_02]: However, and I knew nothing about what I compared to some of you, however, when I knew him there were many strange things that did occur. 49:39 [SPEAKER_02]: that I did not put together until after your people came. 49:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I would not be surprised as psychologists, and I don't know the name of the gentleman that just told you that somebody might have left the clue, but I would not be surprised if there were a priest involved that the priest would have made the cross and left the strength. 49:57 [SPEAKER_02]: interesting. 49:59 [SPEAKER_02]: That would not surprise me at all. 50:00 [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting idea because it's true that very often and I have worked in the courts and stuff, forensic psychologists, that they history that very often people do they lose, they aren't. 50:12 [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that I know is that when I did see MassClip, the end of when he was involved through or when he was at the church in Elkbridge, you know what I'm talking about. 50:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Saying office themes. 50:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 50:25 [SPEAKER_02]: He did have a cross there. 50:27 [SPEAKER_02]: He did talk a lot about pre-smaking, some kinds of the cross on women's chest. 50:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So with Seaman, actually, you knew that. 50:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, so in the papers and I saw from the archdiocese there was some sentence about a priest and I have no idea of my school was involved in a murder or not, but because he was always digging in the cemetery. 50:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew who was involved in something. 50:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I even asked of what he was doing. 50:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said that he was there was a lot of weeds of the cemetery that he got to straight now. 51:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And another time I asked him what's going on there and he said there was some psychological assessments that he got to bury there. 51:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I told him you just asked and you don't usually bury psychological assessments, but you might get rid of them somehow. 51:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So I would suggest that any records that were there was what it was there. 51:21 [SPEAKER_02]: But again, at the time, I knew him. 51:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I have those suspicion of anything going on. 51:26 [SPEAKER_02]: The only time a strange thought for my mind is when I saw the death of the sister in the paper, they're in a possible connection there. 51:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Lee, when you went to see him at the towards the end and you said he didn't seem well to you, he didn't seem physically ill. Was he in bed? 51:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Was he just, could you just write what you remember? 51:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember having the feeling that he was not well. 51:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I asked him a question, uh, he showed me records of what was done. 51:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He did not at that instrument. 51:59 [SPEAKER_02]: He was involved in those records. 52:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But I said, how can you see something like this and not spoke about it? 52:06 [SPEAKER_02]: How can you see these records and not tell people what you know? 52:09 [SPEAKER_02]: How can you do that? 52:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And is that moral that I remember very clearly and he said it was absolutely moral, which was when I had some doubts about where it was coming from, but that seemed to be a very sick thing to me, but the morality of it would have been that he didn't want it, then I would have thought that he didn't want the church here. 52:30 [SPEAKER_02]: whether he was psychologically ill for a long time, whether he dissociated disorder that he was two teeth books or more. 52:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 52:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 52:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 52:40 [SPEAKER_02]: That was a question that was asked me. 52:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Why? 52:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Because whatever I saw, he was kind. 52:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And then he was gentle. 52:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He seemed to be a good man doing some very strange things. 52:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Does that make sense? 52:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He was very right. 52:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Bad I know. 52:53 [SPEAKER_02]: He followed you. 52:54 [SPEAKER_02]: He was getting a doctor in a Hopkins. 52:56 [SPEAKER_02]: He lied. 52:56 [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted to get a doctorate. 52:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I did not know this at the time. 53:00 [SPEAKER_02]: But I traced it down later. 53:01 [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted to get a doctorate. 53:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But he couldn't have gotten a doctorate without saying that they did math and it died. 53:08 [SPEAKER_02]: It would have been an emotional disturbance. 53:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I heard that he had told my friend, Dr. Sorlos, that he could not get a doctorate because the archdiocese wasn't going to pay for it. 53:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing in the record that I ever saw that said he applied for a doctorate or grant. 53:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I only knew that when he came to Hopkins his student, that's a little bit of a... 53:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And when you went to see him, do you remember what the papers were that he showed you? 53:33 [SPEAKER_02]: There were papers that were accusing people of doing various things, accusing priests, and he was saying, can you believe this? 53:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you believe this? 53:42 [SPEAKER_02]: It's out you are not involved. 53:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So it could have been if this was in the 90s, it could have been the witness reports that his own attorney may have shown him from the people that came forward and said that they had been abused and he certainly put up them. 53:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what they were. 54:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that were. 54:02 [SPEAKER_02]: papers that were just sheets of paper. 54:08 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not around. 54:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but I don't know. 54:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know who sent the paper. 54:13 [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't mind me asking was that the point where like your stomach fell out and you thought this guy is. 54:22 [SPEAKER_02]: not what I thought he was. 54:24 [SPEAKER_02]: The only thing I can say is that I was very surprised at that time, particularly when he said answered the Amber Rabbit question, I was so surprised that he really did not seem to be well. 54:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 54:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know whether it might stomach fill out. 54:39 [SPEAKER_02]: But he was different than I knew him, let's put it that way, because I always do him as being relatively healthy, strapping, never understood why he was doing it, digging in the cemetery himself. 54:52 [SPEAKER_02]: We do have, we have talked to at least one, we've talked to two families who he was the 55:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Maskel said, they weren't buried there because I had to use this spot for something else. 55:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And so this young man, whose mom had been buried there when after and physically, there's a police report that Maskel charged the young man with assault. 55:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've seen that report that the family got really angry, that he had the mother's body moved to use the plot for something else. 55:33 [SPEAKER_02]: That whole digging was cemetery that was very strange. 55:36 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not something pretty stupid. 55:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that you don't usually bury papers psychologically said they were what he said. 55:44 [SPEAKER_02]: They were psychological assessments that were done at Alson that he did when he was a master student in house. 55:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Watson to share that's not true. 55:53 [SPEAKER_02]: We know it's some of them are because we took still photos from the video and blew them up. 55:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And they were from the American psychological something that identified the test for us as personality tests and psychological tests that he would not have had the authority to administer. 56:13 [SPEAKER_02]: But Dr. Urban, who was the school psychologist, would have had access to those. 56:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead, Chris. 56:20 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think about those files that he's throwing into the hole in the cemetery. 56:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like a predator or someone who, you know, serial killer, that's like their trophies. 56:34 [SPEAKER_02]: They saved it, why in the world that they were incriminating, why would he bury them and not burn them? 56:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So he treasured them. 56:42 [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I feel. 56:43 [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted them to be there. 56:45 [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted them to be able to dig those back, to look at them when he felt like it. 56:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, by the wise, they were so incriminating or the chair and they live and she saw some of those things on there. 56:58 [SPEAKER_02]: They would have put him away for the rest of his life. 57:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's ask you a question, how many reports do you know we're there? 57:05 [SPEAKER_02]: It was three truckloads. 57:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the hole was the size of a room. 57:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, he did not do all those tests. 57:12 [SPEAKER_02]: He couldn't possibly do them. 57:15 [SPEAKER_02]: They wouldn't do that several people. 57:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, administered tests to all the freshmen. 57:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So every year there would have been 300 freshmen. 57:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And they remember taking these tests. 57:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And then some of them were called back into his office to do a wearer test. 57:32 [SPEAKER_02]: They were also pornography in the old, which a police officer told us he saw the grounds keeper in between trips. 57:42 [SPEAKER_02]: The truck was making took some of the pornography out and blackmailed mask all. 57:48 [SPEAKER_02]: and with it, and kept it. 57:50 [SPEAKER_02]: That guy has dementia and is very old, but all his kids, all seven of the kids lived in the caretaker's house were able to go to Catholic school. 58:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So he was blackmailing Moscow with some of the pornographic pictures that were there. 58:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 58:09 [SPEAKER_02]: If he was to be 300 tests a year, he was bearing some educational tests. 58:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But he couldn't have buried that many psychological tests and my question to you would be, where there are other people giving psychological tests or was it all done by this one? 58:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And the people here would know, was it all done by this one urban fellow or were there other psychologists involved? 58:30 [SPEAKER_02]: There was what Dr. Urban was hired by the archdiocese to travel to the Catholic high schools. 58:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I've talked to him. 58:38 [SPEAKER_02]: He died last year, and it was so creepy because when I called him, he said, I've been expecting your call. 58:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, wow, and he said, you did a great job. 58:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, I asked him questions. 58:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He said, if I knew anything, I would have had to report it. 58:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But he was in it up to his eyeballs. 59:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Bill Dr. Clapperton contested and every all the Catholic school she was hired by Loyola. 59:06 [SPEAKER_02]: The Archdiocese, they've done it. 59:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't know that name. 59:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't know that name. 59:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I can jump in here. 59:11 [SPEAKER_02]: He was a partner along with Gregory Hellwig and I respect. 59:17 [SPEAKER_02]: They were part of psychology associates, and I was actually sent to see Gregory Hellwig in Baltimore, and my friend Donna was saying Dr. Urban at T.O., and so they were part of the same group. 59:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think Dr. Blackerton was involved. 59:36 [SPEAKER_02]: But Michelle explained what happened when you went to see Hellwig. 59:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a therapist. 59:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So he was doing these senses today. 59:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I shouldn't type things with me where he would say, tell me how attractive he finds me. 59:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He was a dull guy probably in his mid 20s and he said, I want you to rate it on the scale from one to 10, but things you would like to do to me. 60:00 [SPEAKER_02]: or with me. 60:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was this whole sexualized where he called desensitization and while he was doing that, he was rubbing my thigh. 60:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And so this was an ongoing thing of 60:15 [SPEAKER_02]: where I was very intimidated by him and it was done a good situation. 60:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So my girlfriend Donna saw Dr. Urban at T.O. 60:28 [SPEAKER_02]: and her mother was always there waiting for her outside the office. 60:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And the only thing he ever did to her that was inappropriate was she told him she felt insecure about herself. 60:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, I wouldn't call you beautiful, but you're really cute. 60:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that doesn't sound terribly awful, but it's really inappropriate and unprofessional. 60:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So that will group. 60:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I came to find out later from a third party kind of reputation for taking advantage of the Catholic high school girls. 61:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I found that out from someone else who is a part of that group. 61:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a little bit of a question about Gilbert Blackerton. 61:11 [SPEAKER_02]: That was the question I asked because there had to be more than one psycho which just moved on. 61:16 [SPEAKER_02]: All those papers there. 61:18 [SPEAKER_02]: They made it in one way. 61:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, full psycho. 61:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It's school and stuff. 61:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I think things there were boxes of photographs that we heard there was a whole about Teresa's wife or daughter of the whole box just a parlor. 61:30 [SPEAKER_02]: There were a lot of directories, family directories of different power issues, stuff that was not inappropriate, but in light of what he was doing, would have helped him. 61:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I talked to a gentleman yesterday on the phone, and he used to work with 61:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said the maintenance man took him into the library of the directory and said, come and look at this and went to the back stack and pulled out a couple of big old dictionaries. 62:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said it was the wrongiest pornography I've ever seen that was stashed behind those in the pre-stiles to look at. 62:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, guys, if you're here and anything that applies to you, we need to make sure you're recording this to Richard Wolves, who's to end the criminal investigation for the attorney general. 62:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I really encourage anybody who has anything that they know about the abuse or about the murder or any of these people were talking, we can help you do that call is a really good die. 62:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I sent him at least one person every week. 62:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway. 62:38 [SPEAKER_02]: The next question is actually for the survivors of any of you had any new memories that you feel comfortable sharing. 62:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember dark vivid details of what happened in his office, I've been gone over these banks over and over again to various people and I've been remembering more detail and sometimes it's true troubling. 63:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay. 63:09 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a question that's a good one from Mary's Fence, Sharon Bush, the question has to do with the apartment. 63:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And I understand what she's asking. 63:19 [SPEAKER_02]: She's read many times that Kathleen Ross lived in the bottom of the floor, and the apartment was partially below Brown. 63:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So there was no balcony or patio, no sliding glass doors as a secondary entrance. 63:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Yet, when Jerry Cove showed the apartment in the keepers, it appeared that he went up a set of steps. 63:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So, can you explain how you would go up the steps to go down into the apartment chair? 63:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And, yes, easily, per apartment was partially underground. 63:51 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true, which she didn't have a patio. 63:54 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you parked her apartment was around the back of the building. 63:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't right in the front of North Bend. 63:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It was facing the parking lot. 64:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And when you parked your car, you would go over and there'd be a few steps that you would go up. 64:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you would go down steps into her apartment, which was the first one on the right. 64:11 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how that was explained. 64:14 [SPEAKER_02]: The parking lot was a little bit higher than her actual apartment was. 64:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Does that make sense? 64:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Mary, now. 64:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because you do have to. 64:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And the partition wasn't there. 64:24 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's out. 64:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 64:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I also wondered it was there any kind of storage room in the building. 64:32 [SPEAKER_02]: There was a laundry room that was in the building, but all apartments seem to have storage areas for the people to keep their Christmas decorations and that type of thing. 64:42 [SPEAKER_02]: But I was never in theirs. 64:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where it was located. 64:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know it was part of the laundry room or not, but I never saw it. 64:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that they had the laundry room right not too far from their apartment door, but I never went in it. 64:55 [SPEAKER_02]: The reason I wondered I lived in a apartment that it was in the laundry room was very easy to break into and I'm thinking about the removal of the rug. 65:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Ryan said, which I don't child, it wasn't fair when it was removed, could they have just taken it out of her storage room and pass them up a box of her habits while they were in there. 65:20 [SPEAKER_02]: When they moved in, they didn't have very much people were giving them things so that they could pull together enough house, pulled the items so they could make a house furniture and that type of thing. 65:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that they had that much at that early point. 65:33 [SPEAKER_02]: They only moved in and I believe July. 65:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And so from July to November, I don't know that they even had any Christmas decoration and yet that very first year. 65:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what else they would have kept its storage. 65:45 [SPEAKER_02]: But I never heard of Russ ever saying to me, and doesn't be weak, 65:52 [SPEAKER_02]: that anybody had broke it into her apartment. 65:54 [SPEAKER_01]: She never she'd ever told me anything. 65:56 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a turns out. 65:57 [SPEAKER_02]: But there was never any break in that I was aware of or anything stolen that she knew about that she'd said anything to or made reference to in any way. 66:06 [SPEAKER_01]: But she did use the law to room. 66:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that. 66:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And whether the storage, that's about the only place to be storage areas, they have cordoned off with a, like a date or something with a lock on at the each apartment had one assigned to them to put storage. 66:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But I never heard her talk about it. 66:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And to my knowledge, I never saw it. 66:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but so I'm not sure about that. 66:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think we have to take Brian Schmidt's story, just my opinion. 66:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And it would have been after my theory is that it would have been in the weeks after Kathy disappeared and Ross may have been at work or staying with her family. 66:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And those guys, it would have been a piece of cake for them to pick that lock. 66:57 [SPEAKER_02]: They were neighbors. 66:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Billy, brother, he had Billy was friends with Kathy and Ross. 67:01 [SPEAKER_02]: He may have had their key. 67:03 [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Ross, my key. 67:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Right? 67:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't think about it. 67:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they would have taken a rug because that would be missed, but I think a blanket, out of a closet, in a bedroom, might not be missed. 67:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think the apartment was ever a crime scene. 67:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't believe, and I'm just saying, like, this is just based on every all the research I've done. 67:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think the captain was murdered in that apartment because there were too many 67:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if he saw them carry in something out, it could have been a blanket. 67:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it would have happened when Gene, after Gene saw Pappie's body, and mass-fold panic, and thought it needed to be moved because her dad was a cop, and what if she brought somebody back there? 67:55 [SPEAKER_02]: She has shared with me where they took her to see Pappie's body. 67:58 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not for from where Pappie was found. 68:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It would be not hard for them to carry Kathy's body in a blanket to where she was actually found. 68:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And Jean, I'm probably sure that eventually she was going to do a podcast about it, but she went over with our filmmakers and they found the spot. 68:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think if Brian saw anything, it would have been then moving her body from one place to another. 68:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So just my idea. 68:30 [SPEAKER_02]: but he was just a really young kid. 68:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Mike, I'm gonna ask you, can you talk a little bit more about Edgar's behavior just in general during the part of the interview that he did were the doctor's series? 68:47 [SPEAKER_06]: So Edgar, where do I begin? 68:50 [SPEAKER_06]: Not guide, say textbook. 68:53 [SPEAKER_06]: You could learn all the accepted behaviors to stress and decay to spare from this guy. 68:59 [SPEAKER_06]: He shows everything, including increased breathing rates. 69:03 [SPEAKER_06]: He shows face touching, including one very important one that it pointed out in the podcast where he's touching the side of his face through the shape of an L. Stroking his chin and gazing down. 69:15 [SPEAKER_06]: And by all indications, that's a pre confession cluster right there. 69:19 [SPEAKER_06]: And he was ready at that point, he was ready to confess that his pot, this is my opinion, my training. 69:27 [SPEAKER_06]: I believe that at that point, he wanted to say what his pot was in it. 69:33 [SPEAKER_06]: but he didn't go through. 69:34 [SPEAKER_06]: He didn't follow it, covering his mouth, but he asked, would you have information on Kathy Smurita? 69:39 [SPEAKER_06]: No, that's his brain splitting. 69:41 [SPEAKER_06]: He's saying, he's denying it verbally, but his mind's sending that finger over, but don't say the truth. 69:47 [SPEAKER_06]: Don't give him what they want. 69:48 [SPEAKER_06]: That guy is just, in my opinion, especially the increased breathing when they show pictures of Maskel and Kathy Tam. 69:57 [SPEAKER_06]: Some people will say he's old. 70:00 [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's not because he's old. 70:01 [SPEAKER_06]: It's a different type of breathing. 70:03 [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a labid breathing that comes from the lungs. 70:06 [SPEAKER_06]: It's a stress indicator. 70:07 [SPEAKER_06]: And when he saw the picture Kathy and let that huge exaggerated 70:16 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this guy, you could make a training film on Miss Guy. 70:20 [SPEAKER_06]: He was definitely involved. 70:23 [SPEAKER_06]: Everything I've been trained in just leads me to believe that. 70:28 [SPEAKER_06]: In my opinion that he was definitely involved in some role got these murder for sure, definitely. 70:35 [SPEAKER_02]: We've tried to get the whole interview because they were there for hours. 70:39 [SPEAKER_02]: They waited until his wife went to work. 70:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And he actually had to sign a release form. 70:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how they got him to do that. 70:47 [SPEAKER_02]: None of us knew that he had even been interviewed until most don was ready to come out. 70:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Like what I was thinking about was, do you see significance in all their stuffed animals? 70:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And the other one was, when he answered a question, 71:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It would look down and then he would look up at Ryan, is that to see if the person's belating what he said, let's gazing down. 71:09 [SPEAKER_06]: That's the sign is a classic sign of deception. 71:11 [SPEAKER_06]: You don't want to look the interviewer in the eye when you're answering or out. 71:15 [SPEAKER_06]: You answer you gaze down because in your mind you're thinking, I don't want them to see my reaction. 71:21 [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm going to gaze down and look up again, but as far as the stuff the animals go, 71:27 [SPEAKER_06]: It can be a lot of reasons for that, but the one I believe in when you're involved in a traumatic event, say Kathy's murder, a lot of people surround themselves with things that comfort them and whatever reason why stuff animals I don't know. 71:43 [SPEAKER_06]: but that is a definite thing that happens a lot people who go through traumatic events and could have been the reason why he's never admitted it and it could have haunted a whole life. 71:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if there was a doover and I think Ryan White is amazing, but I don't think they expected to get all that out of Edgar. 72:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I think Ryan may have had like other probing questions and I thought he was ready to spill his guts too. 72:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the starting was going to admit what he did. 72:13 [SPEAKER_06]: The thing is we got Ryan to the great job and he's a great director and he does that, but he's not a trained interrogator when you see those indicators in response to a question. 72:26 [SPEAKER_06]: Like that's what you see that those wide open eyes go that Adam's apple jump the increased breathing in response to that question you want to go down that rabbit hole and find out why you'd expect it away You want to keep digging you want to keep asking questions related to the same type of question 72:43 [SPEAKER_06]: And he's not experienced and well, that's not his fault, obviously, but if there were a different person doing that and kept hitting them with questions, when those indicators showed up, a guaranteed they would have been a different outcome. 72:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to tie this up for tonight, but just on a note of positivity, I did talk to Robin to you all this week, there is more DNA to be processed from Kathy's clothing, and. 73:13 [SPEAKER_02]: There has been DNA collected from all of the possible perpetrators. 73:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Other bodies were assumed, not just Moscow, so you read between the lines. 73:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So there is DNA from Edgar. 73:28 [SPEAKER_02]: crewed, both of the Schmidt brothers, Moscow. 73:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that Magnus, but they're using a new process. 73:37 [SPEAKER_02]: It's called MVAC. 73:39 [SPEAKER_02]: They're waiting for a lab to do some more processing with them. 73:43 [SPEAKER_02]: It's called Baragin. 73:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I talked to a forensic scientist. 73:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He said that 73:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But upcoming thing, the reason it's taking so long, he explained to me is that because DNA processing is trained so quickly that if you need a teaspoon of DNA 50 years ago to get a result, 74:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Today, you might only need a few grains, so the longer they wait, the more things are happening, where they can process smaller amounts of DNA. 74:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So, fingers crossed also the attorney general's investigation has been continuing almost two years. 74:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, please, if you know anybody, 74:31 [SPEAKER_02]: who even was harassed in the confessional by one of these people or abused by one of the people. 74:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was this was a huge network. 74:41 [SPEAKER_02]: This involved high-ranking politicians and involved some of the nons. 74:46 [SPEAKER_02]: There were late teachers from Kyoto who were involved. 74:50 [SPEAKER_02]: heads are going to roll and the huge, the archdiocese of Baltimore, I'm going to use the word racketeering card that for somebody who knows. 75:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So please, if you have something to share, let me know. 75:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I can put you in touch with the right person. 75:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I can get you Richard Wolves female and found number. 75:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So don't go to bed tonight thinking you can't tell if something happened to you. 75:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you guys. 75:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Love you all. 75:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you Shane, good night. 75:55 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 76:15 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the game everyone is talking about this year? 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