0:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome, Gemma, it's been a minute, hasn't it? 0:12 [SPEAKER_00]: It has, and I'm so happy to see you, Shane, I miss you. 0:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, I miss you too. 0:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know if everybody realizes that we're halfway across the country. 0:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's really good to be back here, and I want to say right off the bat, this does not mean that I am like stepping back into the circle of murder and mayhem, that's your department. 0:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you say that now. 0:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and a couple weeks you never know you might have more to say is actually I find it a little hard to believe Gemma that you're just untalking. 0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm not done talking, but it was been so stressful for me to be like still dig in 0:55 [SPEAKER_00]: answers to Kathy's murder and advocacy for survivors was something that I felt was a valuable contribution, but right now everybody seems like they have their attorneys and they're involved in, you know, their claims and I really haven't had that demand and to be honest with you, it's given me a real sense of calm and serenity, which is exactly what I needed. 1:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm good for this when tonight, no matter how long it takes, if it's multiple episodes, that's fine with me, but I do not want to get back on all those baseball pages, and it's just too much of a demand on me. 1:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Before we started this recording, you asked me how old I was, and I told you I was 37. 1:43 [SPEAKER_04]: But, Jim, if you remember, back when we first started doing this podcast, do you remember 1:53 [SPEAKER_04]: and she went missing. 1:54 [SPEAKER_00]: 26. 1:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God. 1:56 [SPEAKER_04]: That's how long. 1:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's been a while. 1:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, more than a few minutes. 2:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think everybody's like just getting used to saying us again. 2:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 2:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know we look a little bit different. 2:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think we should update everybody when us first. 2:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And I want you to go first. 2:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to go first, 2:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm okay. 2:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if everybody knows that besides letting my gray grow out and letting my hair grow, I had a terrible accident in November with my beautiful rescue dog Misty. 2:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I broke my femur. 2:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I have never felt so much pain in my life. 2:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to have surgery. 2:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I had to have blood transfusion because it was so much blood bleeding into my thigh that my numbers were not high enough for surgery. 2:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So I have a 12 inch rod in my thigh with a screw at the bottom and a nail at the top, and yes, they put them in with regular tools. 3:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's pretty amazing, but it was a big old process. 3:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So I had the surgery, stayed in the hospital, went to rehab for two weeks, which was very painful, but very productive. 3:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to cane right now and I'm doing okay my prognosis is good, but she said I'm not going to be able to walk on assisted probably until Christmas. 3:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm stuck with the cane trying not to hobble too much and yeah, so that's my big exciting. 3:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know everybody will remember exactly a year before that. 3:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I got hit by a car when I was walking teddy. 3:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So I call it the annual dog accident. 3:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Some hope and there's not on third one coming up. 3:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So now it's your turn. 3:56 [SPEAKER_00]: What's up with you? 3:57 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to hear about you, the dogs, everything. 4:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Gemma, I think that you forgot to mention that Teddy passed away. 4:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. 4:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought everybody knew that. 4:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Teddy died in May a year ago. 4:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God. 4:11 [SPEAKER_00]: My sweet boy. 4:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I had never had a dog before. 4:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And he had a heart murmur. 4:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But he was doing okay. 4:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And the day before he was running around the yard and playing with other dogs and people. 4:25 [SPEAKER_00]: and the day he died, I was sitting on the couch and kind of stows him, and I heard this big thumb, and he fell off the couch. 4:36 [SPEAKER_00]: He crept over to me and just laid there and took his last breath, and I just, my heart was 4:42 [SPEAKER_00]: broke. 4:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but most of the people that know us knew that happen and I appreciate all their good wishes. 4:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It is so painful to lose a dog. 4:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a brand new experience and then I go and get another one that makes me have a broken hip, right? 4:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, let's say. 5:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But things look up and I'm always trying to be a core, can look at the positive things 5:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so thanks for letting me go first and now I'm going to hear about you. 5:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I mean it's been a minute since we recorded together. 5:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 5:21 [SPEAKER_04]: I look a little different. 5:22 [SPEAKER_04]: I started having some health problems and started to have to get my act together and focus more on my health and so today I've lost a little more than 300 pounds. 5:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Say that again. 5:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, lost a little bit more than 300 pounds. 5:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know you were riding a bike for a while. 5:44 [SPEAKER_00]: You still ride bikes? 5:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Yep, ride bikes a lot. 5:48 [SPEAKER_04]: I take a couple trips every year. 5:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Two different places. 5:53 [SPEAKER_04]: I think last year, I believe it was last year. 5:55 [SPEAKER_04]: I might have been the year before that. 5:57 [SPEAKER_04]: I went to the little community that sister Kathy had lived in, Pittsburgh. 6:02 [SPEAKER_04]: It's where she's buried in. 6:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 6:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because I went with a bunch of friends and we found her graveside. 6:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 6:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 6:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I knew that. 6:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 6:12 [SPEAKER_04]: It's been a minute. 6:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 6:13 [SPEAKER_04]: It was probably two years ago. 6:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 6:15 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very serene there, isn't it? 6:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah. 6:18 [SPEAKER_04]: It was very beautiful. 6:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you sit down? 6:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 6:21 [SPEAKER_00]: When I went, I was with two friends and we just sat there for like a half hour and just 6:27 [SPEAKER_00]: felt just really calm and peaceful and you know people keep it clean there's a guy that lives up there and he takes care of it and cleans it and washes it off and changes the flowers and yeah it was kept up really well and I know that there's someone in the Facebook groups that you know post pictures of him cleaning that yeah yeah yeah the weeds right did you do a grave rubbing 6:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody did one for me, so I have it here someplace, but yeah, and I'm going to have you went up there, which is called, I forgot the name of the area. 7:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Shush. 7:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Shush though? 7:09 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 7:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's in Pittsburgh, but did you go to our house? 7:14 [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, it just happened to be that the graveyard was past the biking place that we were all biking. 7:20 [SPEAKER_04]: We buy it all over 7:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you go in the city? 7:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, yep. 7:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The virus. 7:30 [SPEAKER_04]: I know. 7:31 [SPEAKER_04]: It was a little scary. 7:32 [SPEAKER_04]: The biking trails will bring you through the downtown. 7:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 7:36 [SPEAKER_00]: How about the pops? 7:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes. 7:38 [SPEAKER_00]: The dogs. 7:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. 7:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Since we've done this, I now have two pops, and they've just turned one. 7:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I have a little miss Betty White who is a Kavapu and she's quite lovely and then I have Ruby so Ruby waters and so they are oh my gosh, I love them so much 7:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So should we get to the reason that we showed up here? 8:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Jim, I'd give everybody time to get settled and get their little drink and whatever they're, yeah. 8:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So what would you like to start with? 8:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Jim, so we asked people in the Facebook group some questions that they would like us to talk about, and so I've written all that out. 8:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. 8:17 [SPEAKER_04]: We thought we could go through that, and then at the end, we can go through a little, you know, where are they now? 8:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sounds good, because we've actually, yeah, we've lost some people, some good people, that were involved in the Capers documentary, and I think it's important to give them the honor they deserve. 8:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So, that's it. 8:36 [SPEAKER_04]: All right, so I've separated out the questions that were given to us by basically the topics. 8:42 [SPEAKER_04]: So the first question, Jama, were any phone calls made to or from Kathy's 8:50 [SPEAKER_00]: before she left, okay. 8:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that answer. 8:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I do know that a student 8:59 [SPEAKER_00]: who was very good friends with Russell, who was a year ahead of me, Sharon Hamel, and we interviewed her for a podcast that we did. 9:08 [SPEAKER_00]: She was there at about 530, and she was either dropping off some clothes or picking up some clothes, because the nuns were wearing street clothes. 9:19 [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't wearing habits, and they didn't have much and not a lot of money. 9:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So Sharon and her mom, 9:24 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, would loan them clothes that get them and looked appropriate for the teachers? 9:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about any phone calls before Kathy left. 9:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I only know about phone calls when sister Russell was looking for Kathy. 9:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And that would have been, she called Sharon first, who is the one who had been there earlier. 9:51 [SPEAKER_00]: and she called her at a round ten o'clock. 9:55 [SPEAKER_00]: to ask if she had seen Kathy or was Kathy with her and Sharon had not. 10:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And then after that, we know that she called Jerry Coo, who was living in Annapolis at the Manrecia Retreat House, Catholic Retreat House. 10:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And she called him, I believe, at about, I'll have it written down. 10:25 [SPEAKER_00]: and he came up immediately. 10:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 10:29 [SPEAKER_04]: All right, so the second question, Gemma, a flight attendant reported seeing Kathy sitting in her car around 830 p.m. What time did Mary hear the yelling? 10:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And was it around the same window? 10:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, that flight attendant was not a flight attendant. 10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: We found out later that she actually just worked at the airport. 10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And she, Ross thought she was a flight attendant. 10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So Ross is the one that said, you know, flight attendant's all cappy. 11:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, I would have to check with Mary, but Shane, do you remember what Mary said, 11:12 [SPEAKER_04]: In the episode, I don't recall. 11:15 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying that she gave a time frame, as we thought at a moment, I'm frame that Kathy will be back. 11:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 11:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know that she saw Mr. Nune getting ready up in his window. 11:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was November, it must have been getting dark. 11:32 [SPEAKER_00]: because I'm not sure you'd see somebody if it's broad daylight, I'm not sure how well you'd see somebody up in their window from across the street. 11:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just trying to, you know, be a little detective here, but I think it was probably around the time, but I can ask Mary and then we can get back to you. 11:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and you can, that person could also go back and listen to Mary on that episode, because I'm pretty sure I've seen mentioned it. 12:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so too. 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 12:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Why was Kathy's car found back at the apartment, but her key is missing. 12:07 [SPEAKER_04]: What's the logic behind returning a car and then keeping the keys? 12:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Where are the keys? 12:16 [SPEAKER_04]: I know that you and I actually, I think when you saw this question, you asked me, and I don't recall. 12:23 [SPEAKER_04]: ever hearing about that, but let me go, I'm going to look up the photo of her car real quick. 12:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the one that has the thing hanging from the, and I can talk about the car and you can look for the keys. 12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So for the viewers, copy's car was not found where Jerry 12:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He showed us in the keepers, Counties carving directly across the street from her apartment. 12:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is not where it was found. 13:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It was found on the same side is where we were standing, but one court of the street. 13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And that court was up around a corner. 13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's very possible when he arrived there and parked his car or Pete's car along the street, they may not have seen her car because it wasn't directly across the street. 13:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess Shane and I have talked about this so much, we both believe that the car was brought back because somebody who drove it needed to be near home. 13:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know that Billy lived directly down across from coffee, so he could have been driving it. 13:50 [SPEAKER_00]: We had somebody who lived in the apartment, 13:57 [SPEAKER_00]: in a jacket, a dark-covered jacket, park the car, and walk rapidly down the street, and down the street would have been north-ben road to Frederick Road and then turn left, and that is about a mile and a half from where Edgar lived. 14:26 [SPEAKER_00]: it's also possible somebody had left their car in the park and lot and needed to get their car to go home. 14:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Do we have a picture? 14:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm still trying to find it. 14:37 [SPEAKER_04]: I can find the other picture. 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't remember seeing keys in the ignition. 14:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't. 14:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't read there. 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know our purse was not there because your purse was found with her. 14:55 [SPEAKER_00]: took the keys with them, but left the doors unlocked. 15:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting. 15:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but if you think about it, it's almost a natural reaction when you're driving a vehicle, when you go to get out. 15:11 [SPEAKER_04]: you're turning it off and pulling out the keys. 15:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 15:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like one motion sort of. 15:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 15:16 [SPEAKER_04]: And so especially if they were in a hurry to get out, so they're not seeing, that's just a natural could go. 15:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 15:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And DNA was not something that was the norm back then. 15:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just the beginning of DNA, right? 15:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 15:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 15:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 15:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 15:35 [SPEAKER_04]: They wouldn't have thought about doing that that time. 15:37 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 15:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 15:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I can't find that picture right off the top of me. 15:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 15:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure it doesn't have keys in it. 15:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it has keys in it. 15:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we would have talked about like, okay, was there one key? 15:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a house key? 15:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a car key? 15:53 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't remember I said we're talking about that. 15:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 15:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 15:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I'll keep looking though. 16:00 [SPEAKER_04]: All right. 16:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Alright, so the next question, Gemma, what's Father Kube and Father McKee and are the ones who reportedly found Sister Kathy's car at 4.40am? 16:10 [SPEAKER_04]: What was it then? 16:11 [SPEAKER_04]: What is the full timeline of that night? 16:14 [SPEAKER_04]: And is there any police record of when they actually showed up? 16:18 [SPEAKER_00]: For those of you viewers, if you have my book and I'm sorry I don't have any copies left and don't get upset but I had the ones that were in the warehouse destroyed because they weren't selling and I was being charged $400 a year to keep them in a warehouse. 16:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I was pretty, I think I thought I was pretty cocky that 3,000 wouldn't be enough, and I didn't sell 3,000, so there were a lot of books left. 16:50 [SPEAKER_00]: and I just sent the last one to somebody, but if you have it, or you can find it used, if you look in the appendix, there is a complete timeline of police reports. 17:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a friend who lives in Maine, and he took, he did a FOIA request, he got all the police reports, the missing person reports, and he had all those sent to him, they were all handwritten, 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: and they were kind of hard, illegible, hard to read, but he transposed all those into type and he sent me everything. 17:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was able to put all those in the appendix of my book. 17:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So basically the timeline that night was pooped, showed up around. 17:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, I believe Russell called him. 17:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He says it about 10 after 10. 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: about 1040 that's driving really, really fast from monopolist. 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's really fast. 17:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And he claims they called the police at 1130, but the police report says they weren't called until 130. 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So this gets back to my feelings about his integrity and his memory and his involvement 18:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Most people think, I know that I don't believe much of what he says anymore and I've cut all my contacts with him because it was a little creepy. 18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: There have been numerous allegations of abuse against him and I just don't want to be involved. 18:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, he says it was 1130 that they called the police. 18:36 [SPEAKER_00]: The police report says 130 and officer came in the police report. 18:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It's 18:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Coobs says it was one. 18:47 [SPEAKER_00]: He says that the officer took a report, missing person report, and they had, you know, they sat with Russell, I guess, down if anybody was going to sleep, one report says that I can't remember where this came from, 19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: that two of them were that the two men drove back and forth between Edmonton Village and the apartment looking for Kathy, which would be a totally normal thing to do. 19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Like suppose you were here at my house and I wasn't here and you know I went to the store, you probably drive the route right well he says that didn't happen. 19:34 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't remember that. 19:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how you could not remember that if she's the love of your life. 19:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So whether that happened or not. 19:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 19:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I do know that he claims that he and Pete went for a walk around three, 30 or so, and that as they're walking up, North Bend Road, they see the car. 20:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Now the police report says, McKeon found the car. 20:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Pete opened the passenger side door and reached into the back. 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Kube told him not to, Kube opened the driver's side door. 20:27 [SPEAKER_00]: He said both sides were unlocked, saw the thing hanging from the 20:32 [SPEAKER_00]: steering wheel and they closed it and didn't touch anything else and called the police. 20:40 [SPEAKER_00]: He said the same office you came back around four, four, 30 and took another report from them. 20:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So we discussed this one in your page and other pages like why would they leave Russell in the 20:59 [SPEAKER_00]: to go driving back and forth, it would make sense to leave one of the men there and take rush with them. 21:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Why would they leave her in the apartment alone to go walk it around the neighborhood when Calcy was abducted from the neighborhood? 21:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So lots of questions, I just don't make sense as far as safety goes. 21:21 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't see anyone leaving someone in the apartment like 21:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So with all the police report, timelines as best as I could. 21:34 [SPEAKER_00]: put them together. 21:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of the officers wrote, like, they left word down, they missed out words, they didn't, weren't real accurate. 21:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a kind of a botched investigation in terms of how it's done now, because, you know, they do it all, everything is virtual. 21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you just talk into something that records it, but anyway, I don't know how police reports are done today, do you? 22:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they would be electronic. 22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so too. 22:06 [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of correct. 22:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's true, y'all. 22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, but if anybody wants to dig into that, it's in the back of the book. 22:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And that kind of answered the next question, which was, if you were asked today to put together a timeline for the night, she disappeared, what series of events do you think took place and with which suspects? 22:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 22:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what do you think? 22:32 [SPEAKER_00]: you know much about the timeline as I do now. 22:35 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think happened during the night? 22:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that I actually have an opinion, which sounds weird, doesn't it? 22:45 [SPEAKER_02]: No. 22:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's clear in my mind at least in my mind. 22:51 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's clear that there are 22:54 [SPEAKER_04]: people who fathered mass school had intervened for him. 22:59 [SPEAKER_04]: But do I think that fathered mass school was the one who went to her apartment and took her? 23:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't really see him being the physical part of the does that? 23:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Neither. 23:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, who that person was? 23:12 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't necessarily know. 23:14 [SPEAKER_04]: If at some point in time, we hear, oh, there's a DNA test has come back and they have figured it out. 23:21 [SPEAKER_04]: I would highly doubt that DNA would show father mass school. 23:24 [SPEAKER_04]: My opinion would be whoever father mass would got to do the dirty work. 23:28 [SPEAKER_04]: He wasn't that did the dirty work. 23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so either. 23:32 [SPEAKER_04]: But I do question the story of Cube. 23:37 [SPEAKER_04]: There's things under the dome make sense. 23:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And if you believe the women who accuse him of wrongdoing as I do, 23:44 [SPEAKER_04]: that just adds further and further, you know, an unease in my mind. 23:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 23:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, whether he was the person who did it, who's the who kidnapped her, again, I don't know that that's the answer, I just think that he knew more than what he was saying. 24:01 [SPEAKER_04]: So, for example, Gemma, if I wanted someone that I cared about or someone that I knew close to disappear, 24:09 [SPEAKER_04]: what would I do if I don't want to be a suspect or we see this with criminals all the time who hire hitmen. 24:15 [SPEAKER_04]: They go make and make sure that they have proof that they couldn't have been the person who did it. 24:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So when Koo shows us this magic ticket, well I couldn't have done it. 24:27 [SPEAKER_04]: I have this ticket. 24:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't see that as proof that he didn't know more information. 24:34 [SPEAKER_04]: That might be proof that he's not the one who kidnapped her, you know? 24:40 [SPEAKER_04]: But to me, I mean, that was just a immediate flag in my mind of every person who I know knew something when someone disappears. 24:48 [SPEAKER_04]: They always have a solid alibi, and that was a very solid alibi that he could prove. 24:55 [SPEAKER_04]: and Gemma, there's very, on very rare occasions, do I keep my movie ticket? 25:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 25:01 [SPEAKER_04]: So the fact that he had his movie ticket in his pocket, I don't know, just something about it, just didn't quite hit home, just because if you're saying that's, that this is why I couldn't have known about it. 25:16 [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't prove it to me. 25:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree with you. 25:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 25:20 [SPEAKER_04]: But what do you think about it? 25:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I, 25:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't think I've ever kept a movie ticket. 25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I probably threw it in the trash, so she's here to trash can once you go through and give it to the person or whatever. 25:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I've kept them. 25:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I've kept concert tickets, but not movie tickets. 25:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And he had both of them. 25:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Why we had both of them? 25:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, did he pay and take both of them to Pete handyman's, but he had both tickets, that seems contrived to me. 25:50 [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is we found out that the same movie had played an anapolis. 25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the week before that and I asked him about that and he said, oh, I guess I didn't know about that. 26:05 [SPEAKER_00]: The timeline is very tight as far as going to the movie, getting out of the movie, you know, in downtown Baltimore, you'd have to use a parking garage, even back then. 26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You'd have to walk to your car at the parking garage, pay your fee. 26:23 [SPEAKER_00]: He's driving back to anapolis, which from Baltimore, that's maybe 45 minutes. 26:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And then comes right back to Carrot Chals, and tells me the only time he was ever at the Carrot Chals was a night coffee disappear. 26:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So if that's accurate, 26:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't nowhere. 26:46 [SPEAKER_00]: He was going. 26:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the first time he had ever been in that neighborhood. 26:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little... 26:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So more than a little suspect to me, that all that is accurate. 26:59 [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing as far as a timeline and this came from Sharon Hamel, she remembered this later after we talked to her that 27:18 [SPEAKER_00]: after the car had been found, not before, not during the night. 27:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So that probably happened, but you know, every Sharon said she and her mom showed up early that morning, both of them, and went to copy support, because she was still missing. 27:41 [SPEAKER_00]: and she said by the time she got there, which was maybe like eight, the police had already had the car towed, which is very unusual even for a missing person case, so that it was processed as a missing person car rather than a homicide. 28:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And those two processes are radically different. 28:11 [SPEAKER_00]: but they didn't find any. 28:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Kathy had gloves on. 28:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it was cold, but so many questions and so many versions of the same event. 28:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So, they can't all be true, right? 28:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, in Jimma from the official story, correct me if I'm wrong, but in at least the version if we believe that Jerry had nothing to do with that the car would have been returned between the time that Jerry is there at the apartment and the car is found. 28:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Because if he would have driven there and the car was parked there, he would have seen it. 28:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's what I was saying earlier when you were looking for the picture. 28:53 [SPEAKER_00]: The car was actually part farther up the street than the court that he said it was found in. 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And farther up the street is up and around a corner, around a curb. 29:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've stood at Carriage House. 29:11 [SPEAKER_00]: like on the sidewalk and looked up the street and if there was a car parked in the next court up when the opposite side of the street you wouldn't be able to see it and that's actually where it was found. 29:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the names of the street are lantern court and carriage fort and lantern court was directly across from Kathy's apartment which was carriage house 29:38 [SPEAKER_00]: and Karen Fort was farther up the street, so it makes sense that people kind of got the two mixed up, but it was actually found one street up from where Kube says it was found. 29:56 [SPEAKER_04]: That's very interesting because, I mean, I remember very clearly, and of course, brings you to where the pictures. 30:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not where it was found. 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not where the car was found. 30:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's very bizarre. 30:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's not me. 30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I agree. 30:12 [SPEAKER_04]: The girlfriend was, I know, I remember where the car was. 30:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, that's not where it was found. 30:19 [SPEAKER_00]: That's odd. 30:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 30:22 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 30:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I can post a little diagram to show where the car was found because I've a friend who did a map and they put the car where the car was actually found. 30:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can send that to you and you can put it on the wood with agent the files. 30:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 30:37 [SPEAKER_04]: And didn't we find out that 30:39 [SPEAKER_04]: the picture of her car that people have seen. 30:42 [SPEAKER_04]: That was for it. 30:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Shopped in. 30:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it was. 30:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason it was done was to give people. 30:50 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where we thought the car was found. 30:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And the producer Jessica Hargrave. 30:55 [SPEAKER_00]: told me that they photoshopped it when purpose to get people an idea. 31:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a graphic aid, but the reason you can tell it's photoshopped is because they took a photo of the car when it was being processed in the police bay at the police department and they flipped 31:20 [SPEAKER_00]: and you could, the drivers, the steering wheel was on the wrong side and we don't live in England. 31:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you look at that picture of the car across the street from Kathy's apartment, it's her car, but the steering wheels on the wrong side because they needed to get the angle right, the perspective right, and the car was like slanted slightly. 31:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So I want everybody to go 31:49 [SPEAKER_00]: The steering wheel is on the passenger side. 31:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, it was photoshopped in on purpose. 31:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I see what you're talking about now. 31:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yep. 32:01 [SPEAKER_04]: And you can also tell when you look at the police end-pound. 32:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, yep. 32:07 [SPEAKER_04]: But you can kind of see how that was done. 32:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. 32:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Very interesting. 32:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. 32:13 [SPEAKER_04]: All right, so Gemma has anyone mapped Father Masks' full daily schedule for the week before and the week after Sister Kathy's disappearance. 32:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, she I didn't read all these questions ahead of time. 32:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of like the element of surprise. 32:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got some of them. 32:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the week before, nobody has mapped his entire schedule because I don't think that's possible. 32:37 [SPEAKER_00]: The man was like everywhere, right? 32:42 [SPEAKER_00]: that week before the only day we know for sure is that Thursday night, he and the other 33:00 [SPEAKER_00]: while two teenagers, one of the survivors and her boyfriend were visiting the nuns, and everybody's like, oh, they burst in. 33:12 [SPEAKER_00]: No, they didn't burst in. 33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: They tried the door. 33:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The handle was open. 33:17 [SPEAKER_00]: They came in, which is weird anyway, but they didn't burst in. 33:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So the student who had been abused by him, 33:27 [SPEAKER_00]: and her boyfriend were sitting in living room with Ross and coffee both of them. 33:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And my school in Magnus came in and Ross had just asked the teens if they wanted something to drink. 33:43 [SPEAKER_00]: not alcohol, they weren't going to do that for like, you know, you want to soda. 33:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And she got up to do that. 33:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And the two priests came in and Kathy told the students to leave that it would be good idea for them to leave. 33:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't know what happened after that. 34:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, my question is, were the priests 34:11 [SPEAKER_00]: to see who was coming or going. 34:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And I went there with a friend right after you and I had been there with the guy from 48 hours and across the street is a parking lot that sits up a little bit. 34:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's got a lot of trees along the edge of it. 34:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You can easily sit in a car and watch 34:38 [SPEAKER_00]: just sitting there. 34:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't tell that they spent some time watching the apartment. 34:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So they may have known that the students went in, they may have wanted to cut that off, like why were they over there anyway, and we don't know what happened. 34:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But we do know that the next day, which was 35:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Kathy went to Western where she was teaching. 35:05 [SPEAKER_00]: The student went to Kyoto where she was a thing. 35:09 [SPEAKER_00]: She was a junior. 35:10 [SPEAKER_00]: No, doing your yes. 35:12 [SPEAKER_00]: She was a year behind me. 35:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And Ross went walked up to where she was teaching at Rockland Middle School. 35:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So if it had been traumatic, 35:24 [SPEAKER_00]: why did everybody do their normal thing the next day? 35:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what was it that the priest said to them? 35:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Did they threaten? 35:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Did they say, you know, don't talk to students anymore? 35:36 [SPEAKER_00]: We do know from that girl woman. 35:41 [SPEAKER_00]: She told me that Nashville pulled her out of class that morning before school 35:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And said, if you tell anybody about last night, I will kill your family and your boyfriend. 35:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And by then, I think people were taking him pretty seriously. 36:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And then once Kathy was murdered, I think everybody was afraid. 36:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So she didn't have anybody to go to then, because both Russ and Kathy were in different schools. 36:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So she's there at KO by herself. 36:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Russ is not there, Kathy's not there. 36:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So what are she going to do? 36:21 [SPEAKER_00]: She's going to keep her mouth shut for sure. 36:23 [SPEAKER_00]: To what I do, if somebody threatened me or my family, I would keep my mouth closed forever if I had to. 36:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, to add to that, Gemma, this was 1969 and this was... 36:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 36:36 [SPEAKER_04]: path like family. 36:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 36:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 36:38 [SPEAKER_04]: That's one thing I've learned from you is how much power a priest had in the time. 36:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 36:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And if they told you to do something or not do something, you listen. 36:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, we go to confession, which is going in that little dark box and and talking about something called sin. 36:56 [SPEAKER_00]: and sin is supposed to be like, you go when you're 7 or 8 and sin is supposed to be the thing you did bad and might have to make up stuff. 37:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, like I, I lied to, I've- 37:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I talked back to my mother one time. 37:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I come out of confession. 37:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, was it one time or two? 37:18 [SPEAKER_00]: My sister used to go back in if she got the number wrong and say, I just lied in confession because I really talked back to my mom two times, not one. 37:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a mind, you know what? 37:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a mind game. 37:34 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a horrible experience, horrible, horrible, 37:39 [SPEAKER_00]: real creepy. 37:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I remember in one of the podcasts that we did with the survivor she had mentioned that one time father masquerque came a picture from her home and her father made a comment about how great it was that father masquerque was doing this. 37:56 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, again, it's just further evidence of the mind games that that would play. 38:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And parents would think, 38:07 [SPEAKER_00]: because that means my kid not on the street, not drinking, not smoking, not getting in trouble, my kid is with a priest. 38:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And now we know. 38:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Now we know. 38:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 38:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Gemma now I want to turn to the letter. 38:25 [SPEAKER_04]: This question was referring to that letter. 38:29 [SPEAKER_04]: Can you share more about the letter? 38:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Who do you think wrote it? 38:32 [SPEAKER_04]: If it wasn't in Kathy's handwriting, why was it considered legitimate? 38:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, there's two letters, are we talking about the one Kathy Center sister or the one that who turned over to the police that supposedly Kathy had written him? 38:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about both. 38:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what I know is that the original letter was not tight. 39:00 [SPEAKER_00]: In the keepers, it shows an actress a woman sitting in a bed room typing when an old time typewriter. 39:10 [SPEAKER_04]: And this is the letter to Cube. 39:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is a letter that supposedly Kathy sent to coup that was dated 12 30 a.m. one a Monday. 39:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was like Sunday night into Monday. 39:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and in the letter I've seen the whole thing, it's 39:33 [SPEAKER_00]: very long, and the whole thing is I don't think it's ever been published anywhere, some people have seen the whole thing, but Bob, this gets confusing, but our journalist friend, not Tom Nudigen, but Bob, Earl and Sin, who covered the story of Kathy's disappearance years and years ago, 39:55 [SPEAKER_00]: went down to the medical examiner's office and found out that the original letter was in the morgue notes. 40:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Now Shane, you've been a coroner. 40:09 [SPEAKER_00]: What are morgue notes? 40:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Notes that the morgue would take 40:21 [SPEAKER_00]: it's an interesting why that letter was even in the more notes. 40:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 40:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 40:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Ku claims to have handed over that letter voluntarily and without an envelope. 40:38 [SPEAKER_00]: He said he gave it to the police in a folder with some other documents. 40:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 40:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So no 40:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was his he volunteered the letter when they questioned him. 40:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 40:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was dated very early morning, just after midnight on the Monday of the Wake Coffee Disappeared. 41:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And it is a love letter. 41:08 [SPEAKER_00]: She talks about 41:12 [SPEAKER_00]: that she just spoke to him by phone, how much she misses him, how much she wants to be with him and have his children, and that she's getting used to that he can't always prioritize her because 41:35 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a seminarian then. 41:37 [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't, I don't think he was a priest then. 41:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he knows seminarian the first year who was a kid. 41:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So he was a priest then. 41:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a father. 41:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So it goes on and on, talks about how she wants to walk down the street on his arm. 41:52 [SPEAKER_00]: She wants to hold up their child to him. 41:56 [SPEAKER_00]: She wants to wash and iron his clothes and fix his meals. 42:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And you would gag because that's not coffee. 42:15 [SPEAKER_00]: should be like, you can arm your own shirt, dude. 42:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 42:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she'd be sweet about it, but she nobody's pushover, right? 42:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And Cube told me once that if counting was in danger, she would freeze. 42:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to agree with that at all. 42:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I think she would fight, and I think she would be so smart. 42:38 [SPEAKER_00]: that she would figure out what she could do to get out of a bad situation. 42:43 [SPEAKER_00]: She would not cave. 42:45 [SPEAKER_00]: She was not a weakling at all. 42:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So the letter ends with her saying that, you know, she loves him and all this stuff. 42:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it says, P S, or something about, I can't wait to see you Saturday. 43:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so think about this in a minute, everybody. 43:07 [SPEAKER_00]: She's writing this letter very early on Monday morning, when she has to go to work on Monday at 6 o'clock and it's 12 o'clock 30 when she's dating this letter. 43:17 [SPEAKER_00]: The letter is so damn long, it probably would have taken her two hours to write it. 43:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Cathy's not gonna stay up all night writing a love letter and then get up at 6 o'clock in the morning to go to school. 43:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And she didn't write this letter, who might want to establish that they had plans on Saturday if they knew she's going to be dead by Saturday. 43:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of a built-in L-A-L-I plan. 43:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 43:55 [SPEAKER_04]: It was along with the movie, doesn't it? 43:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it does. 43:58 [SPEAKER_00]: To happen after the Friday of disappearance. 44:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So it puts a marker on the calendar. 44:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Jim, do you know when for a fact he handed over that letter? 44:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when he handed it over. 44:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that he received it one Wednesday. 44:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, she mailed it. 44:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess she mailed it from school. 44:26 [SPEAKER_00]: we don't know that it was actually male because we never saw the envelope. 44:31 [SPEAKER_00]: There's, I mean, it could have been written and then not male if he wrote it. 44:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he wrote it because at the end, with the end it says, P.S. 44:40 [SPEAKER_00]: with my lock, Russell will be here. 44:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So, Kathy would never ever say that. 44:48 [SPEAKER_00]: That'd be like you say, and okay, everybody come for dinner. 44:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, P.S. 44:52 [SPEAKER_00]: with my lock, 44:54 [SPEAKER_00]: like she doesn't want her, she never would do that to her best friend. 45:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And everybody thinks Ross was in one that she was not, she's not in one that's, I never will believe that. 45:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I think she was threatened for the rest of her life. 45:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But he says he got the letter on Wednesday. 45:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when the police actually questioned him. 45:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I do know that he took a polygraph twice. 45:21 [SPEAKER_00]: once when she was just when she disappeared and once when she was found, he did not pass the second one. 45:28 [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't pass the second one. 45:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, it was the same cup who threw the quote, vagina across the table, said it was the same guy. 45:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is the guy said to him, we didn't pass. 45:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So either you don't trust me or you're hiding something. 45:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And Kube of course, 45:49 [SPEAKER_00]: took control and said, well, I'm not hiding anything, so it must be that I don't trust you. 45:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Any swears at this happened. 45:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And I interrupted you. 46:00 [SPEAKER_00]: You had another question. 46:01 [SPEAKER_04]: I was just going to say, if the note is in the more notes. 46:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 46:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And that would have to be after Kathy was found that he handed over the letter. 46:17 [SPEAKER_00]: interesting. 46:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Unless somebody had it and put it in there rather than in. 46:25 [SPEAKER_04]: It would be in the cold case knows from the detectives if it was from her. 46:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 46:31 [SPEAKER_04]: It's more than the other corners not involved at all. 46:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 46:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 46:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So what what Bob did and Bob told me he couldn't believe 46:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So he sat there at a little table at the medical examiner's office, they let him look at it, but he wasn't permitted to take it or to copy it. 46:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Now copying services back in those days, there were no like real good zerox machines, you know, I mean, I don't know how you would have hand copied it. 47:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And he told me that it was in 47:11 [SPEAKER_00]: it's hand copied and long hand writing and he in his own writing it was four legal pages and he sent a be a copy of his own writing and me and what I did was I retake it exactly the way Bob sent it to me and I left a space in between each line 47:35 [SPEAKER_00]: and a profiler that used to work for Scotland Yard, who's very famous, but it has not to be named, asked me to send it to them, and I did, and they analyzed it, and they don't believe the Kathy wrote it either, because there are some things in it. 47:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this profiler profiles content 48:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So, what the profiler got was my tight copy with space in between for the profiler to put notes in between and said to me like, will Kathy taught English, would she put the date one the upper right or the upper left? 48:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if she taught us, you put the date on the upper right, it's not a business letter. 48:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's not how the letter was when Bob saw it. 48:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I also have a friend that used to be at the medical examiners office that was able to send me little tiny pictures of part of the original letter, not the whole thing. 48:48 [SPEAKER_00]: would never want that person to lose their job. 48:51 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't work there anymore anyway, but they sent me the signature. 48:57 [SPEAKER_00]: They sent me the citation, which is dear, however, they sent me the date. 49:06 [SPEAKER_00]: and one or two clips from in the letter. 49:10 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not Kathy Sam writing. 49:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Our handwriting was like real pretty. 49:15 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, do you know how long's writing? 49:18 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I've seen pictures. 49:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I've never been talking about. 49:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been writing like Jesus would write. 49:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And this was not Kathy Sam writing. 49:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Right after, right when we were filming the keepers, like checking in on me, like being nice, I threw that card away. 49:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I would love to have that card to look at the handwriting because it's not copy-sandwriting. 49:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also very typical of the way the Jesuits would write, the Jesuits will rule different priests. 50:02 [SPEAKER_00]: They're very, I don't know, 50:05 [SPEAKER_00]: They're a little avant-garde. 50:07 [SPEAKER_00]: They're kind of flowery. 50:09 [SPEAKER_00]: They're homilies and sermons. 50:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We're little all over the place. 50:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think he wrote it to the covering cell. 50:17 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think, yeah? 50:19 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, a couple thoughts that come to my mind. 50:22 [SPEAKER_04]: One is I want to know, did Kathy normally handwrite letters or did she type them? 50:28 [SPEAKER_00]: She would normally handwrite letters. 50:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 50:36 [SPEAKER_00]: There were a few times when she typed something like when she was leaving Kio, she typed up and announced meant to send to people who would need her address over the summer and that she was going to be leaving Kio but that she'd be available and that people could send male or Russell's families address because Russell had family in the Baltimore area. 51:04 [SPEAKER_00]: because Kathy would be traveling a lot in the summer, and that was tight. 51:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But, and I've seen a copy of that, and I can't remember how things were copied, but they never looked very good. 51:15 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the coffee just didn't look real good. 51:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it might have been one of those machines where you hand crank a, I don't know. 51:24 [SPEAKER_04]: But another thought that I have is bringing back up what I mentioned earlier is if the morgue, if the coroner has the letter, that means it would have had to have been given to the coroner during the time the death investigation was happening, so that would have been when they retrieved her body. 51:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, if my girlfriend was missing, and then I receive a letter from her in the mail, that's believe I would be giving that to the police when she goes missing. 51:57 [SPEAKER_04]: So for me, that was almost, uh, you know, he has all these, uh, uh, work to be able to prove is alibi. 52:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 52:10 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like another just a fishy moment for me. 52:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I never thought about that, that otherwise the detectives would have had it from the missing persons for police. 52:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 52:19 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no reason for the corner to have it. 52:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's there any reason why the police would then put it in the more notes? 52:26 [SPEAKER_04]: No. 52:27 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 52:27 [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't do that. 52:28 [SPEAKER_04]: The police doesn't share that type of things. 52:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there's no reason that the corner would have had it. 52:33 [SPEAKER_04]: And the corner would all go. 52:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the corner would only have it if the corner collected it at the time when the body was found. 52:42 [SPEAKER_00]: interesting. 52:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I never thought about that. 52:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Shane, you're so smart. 52:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I knew that. 52:50 [SPEAKER_04]: It just takes time for us. 52:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Doesn't it, Gemma, after a hundred episodes and a few years? 52:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's nothing. 52:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that we didn't, we thought about this before. 52:57 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 52:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we just, this is how we work, Gemma. 53:01 [SPEAKER_00]: We just start to know. 53:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 53:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 53:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Take me away from this. 53:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 53:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a lot to think about now, huh? 53:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 53:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's talk about the other letter then. 53:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 53:13 [SPEAKER_00]: The other letter was a letter that actually Kathy did write and Kathy wrote a letter to her sister Marilyn who was in nursing school and the letter was delivered eight days after Kathy disappeared. 53:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was written by Kathy 53:40 [SPEAKER_00]: because it was postmarked like after Kathy disappeared. 53:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So most people think that, and it would make sense that Kathy said to us, if anything ever happens to me, mail this to my sister, okay? 54:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't know why she wouldn't mail it to her parents, except that her parents were, 54:08 [SPEAKER_00]: not happy that she was leaving the condon. 54:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe she felt more comfortable with Marilyn receiving information that could have been a bombshell. 54:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Marilyn told me it was not a breeding card. 54:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It was not like an envelope colored envelope or like a something typical of a breeding card. 54:34 [SPEAKER_00]: She said it was definitely a letter and it was thick, THICK. 54:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And when she received it, she says she kicks herself to think that she didn't open it. 54:50 [SPEAKER_00]: her dad worked for the post office. 54:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He did send somebody to get the letter, whether it was the police or the post office. 55:01 [SPEAKER_00]: They got the letter from Maryland. 55:03 [SPEAKER_00]: We do know that it did get to the police because it's in the police report again in the back of the book. 55:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So, for some reason, 55:21 [SPEAKER_00]: because I just heard from our friend in New York, Ronnie Norpelle, within the last year, Ronnie's mom said that Cube, hope we can follow me here, said that when Mr. 55:48 [SPEAKER_00]: that he almost attacked Koo and called him of Ethan Bastard or whatever, and I believe that everything that needed to be known was in that letter about the abuse. 56:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that Kathy, 56:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe the Kathy found out that he, yes, was a predator and my personal opinion is that that's the argument, Mary Spencer, Kathy and Jerry, Yim Yelanatter. 56:34 [SPEAKER_00]: because one of the other women who claims to have been abused by him said that when he was angry, his voice was so loud and so frightening that you know, it would just be awful. 56:53 [SPEAKER_00]: and Jean also talks about how whoever was in the office, she was more afraid of that person than she was at Moscow. 57:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So if that was coup, that's a possibility. 57:06 [SPEAKER_00]: But to go back to the letter, I think he did read it. 57:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I think somebody did read it. 57:12 [SPEAKER_00]: In the police report, in one paragraph, 57:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And in another paragraph, it says that he turned over an envelope. 57:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So we don't know if that was a letter in an envelope. 57:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Did he just give him the envelope and not the letter? 57:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I think her dad knew exactly what happened. 57:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And Cube claims that, according to Ronnie's mom, who was very good friends with Cube, 57:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that when Koo met with Marilyn, when we were all together and this is in the keepers at the airport hotel, he said, I will never forgive your family for the way they treated me when you disappeared. 58:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So very narcissistic comment. 58:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope he's listening to this because I don't 58:18 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first thing. 58:19 [SPEAKER_00]: She said, where's the ring? 58:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll never forgive your family for the way they treated me when Kathy disappeared. 58:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And her father physically going after him. 58:33 [SPEAKER_00]: That's real suspect, too. 58:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, that's a very good point. 58:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Jim might just challenge maybe a little bit of what you just said. 58:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Please do. 58:43 [SPEAKER_04]: So my thinking is going like as you're talking, I'm just picturing all this happening. 58:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And so if we think about father, masqueror and magma's going to cat, he's apartment than I before it disappears or the day before. 58:58 [SPEAKER_04]: It's my belief, and I think it's yours too, is that he's going there because he's trying to convince Kathy not to say anything. 59:07 [SPEAKER_04]: She may have already contacted the archdiocese, whatever he was trying to, hey, knock it off. 59:15 [SPEAKER_04]: From knowing Kathy, from you and other people that we've spoken to, sounds like that wouldn't have worked. 59:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it could be a natural thing that would happen next is then father mask was like, okay, well, the next person who could probably talk her into this is Cube, so that night Cube comes, meets her at the apartment when she gets back. 59:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Try to say, hey, you need to drop this. 59:47 [SPEAKER_04]: This is not okay. 59:49 [SPEAKER_02]: You cannot be reproduced. 59:50 [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, from knowing Kathy the way I do from where you drive over, she's going to tell him no. 59:56 [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, why are you talking to me like this? 59:59 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's not okay. 60:01 [SPEAKER_04]: And there would be this large argument that would happen. 60:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, that would be what they were arguing about, maybe. 60:06 [SPEAKER_04]: And then, Emma, you talk about this letter that her sister received clearly postmarked, it couldn't have been so high. 60:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Right. 60:16 [SPEAKER_04]: But if we also are questioning the letter that Kube gave over, that seems to be that it was handed over after Kathy's body was discovered. 60:26 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, if he's going through all of these steps to be able to create an alibi, a strong alibi, what would stop him from writing a letter to the sister trying to get her off this case, too. 60:40 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, and if that's 60:46 [SPEAKER_04]: That's I'm just bringing up another thought. 60:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, no, I get to all things. 60:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. 60:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And then maybe the reason that it disappeared was because we know the police were involved in the abuse. 60:58 [SPEAKER_04]: If they see this water and they're like, no, if when we read the slatter is clear, that Kub wrote it, it's not going to work well for him, mask on all these other people, a letter just disappears. 61:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the letter that 61:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Kathy wrote to Marilyn was her dad would have recognized her handwriting. 61:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 61:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So, and, you know, unfortunately, he's no longer living, but you're right. 61:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Where would that letter be now? 61:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I remember when Abby and I, or when Marilyn went to see the detectives and 61:44 [SPEAKER_00]: making up the keepers when she came on board, they said the letter had been admitted into evidence, one this thing they have called boast, barcode, barcode, I forgot what it's called, beast. 62:03 [SPEAKER_00]: bar code encrypted something something it was admitted into evidence, but that it had it was missing. 62:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 62:12 [SPEAKER_04]: So it wasn't firm that with was it has been Gary the original detector? 62:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Gary Childs. 62:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 62:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he, yeah, he's the one that was in the series and actually Ryan had to go above the head of the Corporal handling the case. 62:29 [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't like it because she said we never do this. 62:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But Ryan got him to say yes and Gary was able to do that interview. 62:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's when he left to go find out, you know, what happened to the letter? 62:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 62:42 [SPEAKER_00]: We know it was 62:47 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it was in the city hands. 62:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, why would it be in the city hands? 62:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because she was still missing, it wasn't until January that things were turned over to County homicide. 63:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think that was a mistake either. 63:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I think those priests were all over the place and the fact that Kathy, 63:08 [SPEAKER_00]: lived in the city, and was found in the county, and Keeow was in the city, and girls were taken to the park, and the county, and, you know, then Joyce is in, is in, and a rental county. 63:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they, they made a mess like that, that big old web, you know, was, I don't think it was random. 63:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was intentional to, 63:32 [SPEAKER_00]: They're confusing. 63:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we have Maskel's half brother who is a high ranking police officer in the Baltimore City Police Department. 63:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So he was capable. 63:47 [SPEAKER_00]: deal on whatever to help his bro, you know? 63:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it will please were involved in it anyway in the abuse. 63:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was the problem is if you if you bring mask or down, he's going to bring all of you down. 63:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, and I think that's all of this. 64:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's why it's never publicly been solved. 64:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that they know who did it. 64:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I told you this, but about a year ago, the officer that's in charge of the investigation right now, his name is Josh Bataglia, young guys, probably in his 30s, young family, very nice guy, but you know, unlike twice as age, and he's just coming into this brand 64:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And I gave him a whole, I begged him to go to see Koo. 64:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And this has been since those two reporters went, and did that very long story with Koo who denied everything. 64:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I gave Josh a whole lot of questions and begged him, and he went up there again to New Jersey. 64:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And he questioned him. 64:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, Koo, sticks to his story. 64:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, what about my questions? 65:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I had, I wanted Josh to say, like, do you have a belly scar? 65:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, let me see it, you know? 65:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, I can't tell you any of the responses. 65:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, wait a minute. 65:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I just gave you all this stuff for you to ask him, and you're not telling me anything. 65:22 [SPEAKER_00]: He did give me one thing. 65:25 [SPEAKER_00]: he gave me the time that the check was deposited for that the check was cached. 65:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to know what it is? 65:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 65:35 [SPEAKER_00]: 750. 65:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay. 65:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which sounds about right. 65:40 [SPEAKER_00]: 750. 65:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think Kathy, I know I'm getting off track, but I don't think she ever went to the 65:55 [SPEAKER_00]: she turned left and went down to Frederick Road and then made a right. 65:59 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a mulelies on the right hand side between her apartment and the bank. 66:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Not in a department store. 66:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So she could have stopped there, gotten her buns. 66:14 [SPEAKER_00]: went to the bank, deposited or cushed that check at 7.50 p.m. and then gone down to Edmonton Village. 66:24 [SPEAKER_00]: She was seen by a teacher and the teacher's niece across the street from the head company at Hoshokone and where she didn't buy that necklace. 66:37 [SPEAKER_00]: We found out that she never bought a necklace 66:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So it all fits. 66:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Gemma, those buns. 66:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 66:47 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm familiar with that type of bun. 66:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that something that you were buying? 66:52 [SPEAKER_04]: You would want to keep warm until you got home? 66:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Nah, they were for breakfast. 66:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 66:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You always think, Ray, had these like, I guess this is a ball and more thing. 67:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You would buy not, they're not like donuts. 67:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you ever see those funds that they come in a role and you open the role and you take them out and they have cinnamon and then you put okay it was more like that and so but they would make those funds fresh and what meal was known for their baked goods so it was more like that it was like a breakfast. 67:33 [SPEAKER_00]: thing. 67:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And the next day would be Saturday. 67:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So that would make sense. 67:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So no, they wouldn't be, they would be in a case in a bakery case, not warm. 67:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And you wouldn't have to cook them, but you could heat them up, I guess. 67:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody had a microwave, or you would just eat them the way they are. 67:53 [SPEAKER_00]: But they're like sticky buns. 67:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that makes sense. 67:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 67:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So they weren't rolls, they weren't dinner rolls, 68:00 [SPEAKER_00]: you always sticky bonds that they would have been eaten for breakfast next day. 68:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Gemma, I'm going to ask you our next question, and I feel like we we talked about this a lot. 68:13 [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like it comes up in every episode. 68:15 [SPEAKER_02]: No. 68:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Sister Kathy's ring from Father Kube was found on her left ring finger with one glove on on that. 68:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Remembered her wearing that ring on a chain around 68:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, not to my, not to my knowledge. 68:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Good question. 68:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. 68:36 [SPEAKER_04]: It was a very good question. 68:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And when she was at Western teaching, Western high school, the girls... 68:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I think? 68:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to remember if she said you can ask me anything because Juliana was in her class, right? 68:52 [SPEAKER_00]: She said, just don't ask about the ring, she worked around her neck, of course, everybody would want to know, is it, you know, what is it? 69:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know anything about the chain, and I imagine it was not an expensive chain. 69:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I think 69:08 [SPEAKER_00]: who would have just given her the ring, hoping that she would maybe wear it on her left hand. 69:16 [SPEAKER_00]: She did not, but it was found on her left hand when a ring finger interested in. 69:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, there's that controlled thing with a glove over it. 69:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that when Corporal Robin Teele was handling this investigation, 69:38 [SPEAKER_00]: who was determined to try and get DNA from that globe because that was the glove that was on Kathy's hand and not on the ground. 69:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe the other glove was on the ground. 69:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 69:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, were any pay phone calls made from locations near the dump site and the days surrounding the body's placement? 70:04 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have any records at any phone calls, except from the people that got called. 70:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Like Sharon got called, who've got called by Russell. 70:14 [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing in any police reports. 70:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe police investigations were done that way back then, like checking into pay phones and stuff. 70:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it was very thorough. 70:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think because so many people were in the loop. 70:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not the cops that were investigating, but they were going to do less rather than more. 70:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as Kathy's body was found, the case was turned over to Baltimore County homicide. 70:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It's transferred from Baltimore City missing persons to Baltimore County homicide. 70:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've never heard anything about any pay phones or any bone records, nothing. 71:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, in being, we've been at that location a few times and I don't know where there would have been a pay phone at that time. 71:11 [SPEAKER_04]: I can't. 71:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 71:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a neighborhood. 71:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm trying to think like in my, 71:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And my growing up, the only pay phones I would have seen would have been outside, like little neighborhood strip malls will maybe just four or five stores maybe a pay phone. 71:32 [SPEAKER_00]: A pay gas station. 71:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and not even like a booth, just like a pay phone on the wall, you know? 71:39 [SPEAKER_04]: So, and I don't remember there are even being a gas station nearby. 71:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this is a very, right. 71:48 [SPEAKER_00]: very few gas stations nearby. 71:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 71:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Were there any insurance policies, financial transactions or unusual church fund movements in the weeks surrounding her death? 72:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Great question, but I don't even think anybody looked into that. 72:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you pull who are supposed to be looking into it, I have a a reason. 72:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, not to be saw on one thing. 72:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So, let's see, who would look into that, her family, 72:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think Kathy would have had an insurance policy, life insurance policy cost money. 72:24 [SPEAKER_00]: What was the other thing you asked about in sure, oh, transactions? 72:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Financial transactions. 72:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's always don't cash. 72:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I've talked to a couple of people who said they witnessed him after the church basket went around, reaching in there, taking a lot of paper money and putting it in his pocket. 72:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And I spoke to one guy who was responsible, the Catholic churches put out a bulletin, like a little newsletter on Sundays with like a list of who's getting baptized and when the 73:02 [SPEAKER_00]: and they get sponsors for the back page, you know, like the local funeral home or some organization, some local paint, whatever paint store. 73:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the the man that was responsible the company that was responsible for printing the bulletins every week, he would do the bulletins like I don't know if thousand of them or something. 73:26 [SPEAKER_00]: and he said he brought him over, and Moscow was there, and these these things had to be folded. 73:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if the service folded them or just brought him as one big sheet, but he said when he delivered the bulletins, Moscow said, come with me a minute, and this does have a point 73:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Churchy was in all the way to the back and reached in between a couple of books and pulled out a couple of porn magazines that Moscow had these stuck in the back, but he said he also was counting the money and said something to the guy like, look what I can do and took all the bills and put 74:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Hitler, you know? 74:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Jim, I also, I did want to make a quick comment that I have written down as well that, I mean, talking about funny intro transactions, they, as a question, they said church funds are movements. 74:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And I know that three days prior to Kathy's disappearance, that was when St. Clemens had sold their old building, the old directory, 74:53 [SPEAKER_02]: three days before. 74:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, three days before. 74:56 [SPEAKER_04]: The way that I don't just show. 74:59 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, saying climate's about a new directory and they sold the old one. 75:03 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's of course a place that mascot had lived in a beauty. 75:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 75:09 [SPEAKER_01]: How did you know about that? 75:11 [SPEAKER_04]: It's written in an old public timeline that we have, but it came from when records. 75:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, never before. 75:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and so it was right before the time she disappeared three days. 75:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. 75:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh and they sold that okay they sold that directory to the Garmer family and the Garmer's raised five kids and lived there 20 years and they raised five kids 75:43 [SPEAKER_00]: and then they sold it to Melbourne Schmuck who owns it now and kind of beat up. 75:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you knew that about two years ago the backyard was dug up and something was found. 75:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Or tell you about that. 75:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay. 76:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can tell you now the press was intentionally kept out, but two years ago, a woman who is publicly one of Muscles survivors, her name is Eva Nelson, and she remembered watching Muscle bury something in the backyard. 76:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And she thought it was under a small bush, and 76:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So the cops get in touch with the owner, Melvin Schmock, who I know who he is. 76:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of followed him into port and introduced myself and he does not involve in this, but he owns the house and they got his permission to dig up his backyard because his backyard was really overgrown and he saw this as an opportunity to get it nice and clean. 76:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, just so you put my, you know, don't damage anything and you have to lead the organized. 77:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So they use sonar. 77:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know much about this, but it gets a picture of 77:11 [SPEAKER_00]: objects underground. 77:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know anything about it? 77:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it creates like, well, it doesn't it's on a picture. 77:17 [SPEAKER_04]: It is like a layout and it will start pinging in the ground and then if there is something there, it will tell you about the size that it is, how deep it is, but you don't know what it is until you dig it up. 77:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 77:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they did that. 77:31 [SPEAKER_00]: They did where she thought the thing was buried. 77:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly enough, Josh Pataglia, the cop who's handling copies, case, was present as was a paralegal that's 77:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they were all there. 77:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It took all day the machine picked up on some irregularities so they started digging holes. 78:03 [SPEAKER_00]: They found nothing. 78:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So later. 78:08 [SPEAKER_00]: They came back and did it again, a different person, a different technician, did it differently. 78:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And they found something under that tree, under that bush. 78:24 [SPEAKER_00]: When they dug it up, it was a broken statue of Mary Jesus mother. 78:37 [SPEAKER_00]: and it was broken in hair. 78:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And the story is from Eva that Mascol, when Eva was at St. Plenance, Mascol used to come looking for her. 78:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the nuns figured out what he was up to. 78:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she would give Eva jobs to do so that she wouldn't have to go. 79:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So, for example, if it was during lunch time or recessed, the nun would take Eva into the church and be in their whip her and polish the cues, or like help fix the claws on the altar, okay, to keep Eva safe. 79:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And the nun gave her a statue of Mary and said, Mary will always protect you. 79:28 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll mask, we'll found out about this, and he broke the statue in front of Eva. 79:35 [SPEAKER_00]: and he made her watch him bury it. 79:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So he buried it in that backyard, and it was found just two years ago, and Eva recognized it. 79:47 [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't know when they dug it up, but she saw it, and I saw picture of it. 79:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is significant that her memory was accurate. 80:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Now the press was not permitted 80:04 [SPEAKER_00]: but I hope I'm not telling secrets but our filmmakers talk to neighbors that had cameras in their backyard and they were able to get those people to turn over the footage from I don't know ring cameras or whatever the cameras were on their house so they were able to get pictures of it. 80:28 [SPEAKER_04]: So we might see them someday. 80:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 80:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's really, I would love to have them, you know, do a follow-up, but I don't think that's in the future plans. 80:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 80:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Gemma, so we're only halfway through the questions, then we've not gotten to, you know, where people are today, so we've already recorded for two hours. 80:56 [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to stop now, we can record another day and then. 80:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't matter to me, talk to you. 81:01 [SPEAKER_04]: How about we meet up again next week? 81:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Down's good. 81:05 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll do another. 81:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 81:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. 81:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe we can start with updating on where people are and then answer questions. 81:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and we'll roll this out in the next couple of days and if people have more questions, send them our way and we might get to them in the next one. 81:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds good. 81:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 81:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I have to tell you though, at the beginning of this recording, I'm pretty sure you said that this was just gonna be one thing we're doing it today. 81:32 [SPEAKER_04]: and I've already talked you into coming back next week. 81:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yes you have. 81:38 [SPEAKER_04]: But I feel like we have made a good progress but then these, you know, 10 questions. 81:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Right. 81:44 [SPEAKER_04]: We'll stop here and we will we'll meet right back here next week. 81:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds good.
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