0:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Today, Jim and I are joined with Dr. Colin Ross. 0:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Dr. Ross for joining us. 0:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, my pleasure. 0:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for the invite. 0:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Ross, I know that you are a psychiatrist from 1993 to 94. 0:38 [SPEAKER_02]: You are the president of the International Society for the study of trauma and dissociation. 0:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I also noticed that you continue to publish in the American Journal of Psychiatry. 0:48 [SPEAKER_02]: The first type of discussion I'd like to have with you is just to have you tell me about the work that you do. 0:54 [SPEAKER_02]: at the Ross Institute for Psychological Trauma in Dallas, as well as the Forest Future Psychiatric Hospital A-Grain Rapids Michigan. 1:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I consult to three hospitals. 1:05 [SPEAKER_03]: There's also a delamo hospital in Los Angeles. 1:08 [SPEAKER_03]: They're all within the same hospital system. 1:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Most of my work is in the Dallas area hospital, which is where I live. 1:16 [SPEAKER_03]: But I do some in-person trips and also video conference groups at the other two locations. 1:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably about, it varies 25 to 35% of people in the programs have to associate a vitality disorder. 1:28 [SPEAKER_03]: It goes to the ID. 1:30 [SPEAKER_03]: All have complex serious severe trauma that almost always starting and childhood. 1:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And we provide like standard kind of medication management that happens in any psychiatric hospital, but our main thing is a loss of psychotherapy. 1:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I saw that you produced several documentaries, as well as educational films, about this issue of identity disorder, as you mentioned that's shortly known as DID. 1:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell me about what DID is, as well as the differences between repression and dissociation? 2:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, it's good thing we've got about six hours available to explain all of that. 2:08 [SPEAKER_03]: So basically, the idea has been around for a long time, like most mental health problems, either not recognized or with different names. 2:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So in the sort of last 20 years of the under its 19th century, it was sometimes called double personality, sometimes the double conscience, 2:28 [SPEAKER_03]: sometimes multiple personalities, and then it was multiple personality disorder most of the 20th century up until we changed the name to dissociative identity disorder in 1994. 2:40 [SPEAKER_03]: When I say we just four group on dissociative disorders, that was a member of the reason that we changed the name was to try and get away from the idea that there's literally separate personalities. 2:53 [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually 2:56 [SPEAKER_03]: but that didn't seem to have any effect on the skeptics at all. 3:00 [SPEAKER_03]: So multiple personality, MPD, equals dissociative identity disorder, DIT. 3:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And basically, you have these different identities inside, but usually have different names and ages. 3:13 [SPEAKER_03]: They believe that sometimes they have separate physical bodies. 3:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Some of them are locked in the past, have no idea that it's not 1993 or 1982 currently. 3:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And some people have just different states that don't have specific names, so they'll be me and angry me or sad me. 3:36 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's switching, which means one or more of these personalities, identity states, all to personalities, takes over control of the body and the regular out front person is pushed into the background. 3:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And the person who's normally out front when they're pushed into the background, 3:57 [SPEAKER_03]: They may be closed out, but somewhat tuned into what's going on, where they may be like in the backseat, so to speak, watching, but not in control of the body. 4:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's different identities, states, switching from one to another some various combinations of amnesia. 4:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And why would be the difference between repression and dissociation? 4:18 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a complicated story, and it's a little bit technical, but dissociation has 4:23 [SPEAKER_03]: four meetings that I talk about in the literature. 4:27 [SPEAKER_03]: So one is it's, I call it, general systems term. 4:31 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just a general term. 4:33 [SPEAKER_03]: So dissociation is the opposite of association. 4:37 [SPEAKER_03]: So when two things are associated, they're connected together interacting. 4:41 [SPEAKER_03]: When they're dissociated, they're disconnected out of relationship, not interacting. 4:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So in that general sense, dissociation means disconnection. 4:49 [SPEAKER_03]: That can happen in anywhere in the universe. 4:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And for instance, there's dissociation constants in physical chemistry. 4:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So just being, it's just another word for disconnection. 4:59 [SPEAKER_03]: You can be disconnected from your own feelings, your own memories, all different things inside your mind. 5:05 [SPEAKER_03]: The second meaning of dissociation is a technical term in cognitive psychology. 5:10 [SPEAKER_03]: It's been around for 30, 40 years at least, and it's again a disconnection between one psychological system and another. 5:20 [SPEAKER_03]: For instance, your conscious memory system and your unconscious memory system. 5:24 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's tons and tons of experiments showing that you could have information stored in your procedural or unconscious memory. 5:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It's affecting what you do and say in college experiments, but you don't have any conscious memory of it. 5:36 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's a technical term in cognitive psychology. 5:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Third meaning is it's the symptoms of dissociation. 5:43 [SPEAKER_03]: So what is a panic disorder? 5:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Panic disorder is when you have panic attacks, what's a panic attack? 5:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's the following list of symptoms. 5:51 [SPEAKER_03]: What's depression? 5:52 [SPEAKER_03]: That's when you have the following list of symptoms. 5:55 [SPEAKER_03]: What is dissociation? 5:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's the list of symptoms. 5:58 [SPEAKER_03]: in the diagnostic criteria in different measures of dissociation. 6:02 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's no more mysterious than any other set of symptoms and we've got all kinds of statistics published in all kinds of journals about that. 6:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the fourth meeting, this is where the confusion comes in, because none of those first three meetings have anything to do with repression. 6:16 [SPEAKER_03]: The fourth meaning is it's a internal defense mechanism. 6:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a theory of what's going on in your mind. 6:23 [SPEAKER_03]: And then another theory of what's going on in the mind is repression. 6:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And the differences between these two get all mushed up and confused all the time. 6:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And the extreme skeptics will say, all this repression theory is just based on ridiculous Freudian theory. 6:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's outdated and there's no science behind it. 6:42 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no evidence for it. 6:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And us, since we'll people don't even talk about it. 6:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And then they'll say, I'll come back to that in a second, then they'll say, and dissociation is the same thing as repression. 6:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, there's no evidence for dissociation. 6:55 [SPEAKER_03]: It's also totally bogus based on Freud. 6:57 [SPEAKER_03]: It isn't science. 6:59 [SPEAKER_03]: But in fact, dissociation in the sense of, 7:02 [SPEAKER_03]: a technical term in cognitive psychology, or symptoms that are in the DSM, is it's thoroughly researched in the same way with the same kind of statistics at the same level as any other type of mental symptom. 7:15 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a large scientific literature. 7:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So when we come back to dissociation as a defense mechanism, 7:22 [SPEAKER_03]: You can't like way or measure photographic fence mechanism. 7:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And the best way to understand the difference between dissociation and repression is there's a guy named Ernest Hillguard who published a book in the late 70s on Neo dissociation theory, which means new updated dissociation theory. 7:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And he is just a little diagram to explain the difference. 7:44 [SPEAKER_03]: There's horizontal splitting and vertical splitting. 7:47 [SPEAKER_03]: So horizontal splitting, and this is just 7:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Horizontal splitting is when there's a horizontal barrier in your mind. 7:56 [SPEAKER_03]: There's something in your conscious mind that you upset about or conflicted about or don't want to know or feel. 8:02 [SPEAKER_03]: So you push it down across that horizontal barrier into your unconscious mind. 8:08 [SPEAKER_03]: That's repression. 8:10 [SPEAKER_03]: According to Hillguard, dissociation is vertical splitting. 8:15 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a vertical barrier in your mind. 8:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So one part of your conscious mind is disconnected from another part of your conscious mind. 8:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And nothing is pushed down into your unconscious. 8:25 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just one part of your mind doesn't have access to what the other part of your mind is holding. 8:30 [SPEAKER_02]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 8:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 8:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 8:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 9:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they 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that happened at age 6, 8, 10, 12. 10:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Because when you talk to the ultra personality, it does remember that was there when it happened. 11:01 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a recovered memory. 11:02 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just something they've always known. 11:04 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's completely different from the memory. 11:06 [SPEAKER_03]: It was totally buried and your conscious mind was grinding away on it, distorting it and mixing it up with fantasy. 11:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So really in DID, you don't recover memories they've always been recovered. 11:18 [SPEAKER_03]: They're just held by different fragments of your conscious mind. 11:22 [SPEAKER_03]: You could say that they get recovered by the host personality, the old front person, in the course of therapy, but they haven't come up from the unconscious and there's no repression involved. 11:33 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a point that seems to be lost on the skeptics they don't understand that or talk about it. 11:38 [SPEAKER_03]: The dumbest thing of all from the extreme skeptics 11:43 [SPEAKER_03]: who eat Freudian theory, bogus stuff, it's unscientific. 11:47 [SPEAKER_03]: They don't even understand Freudian repression theory. 11:50 [SPEAKER_03]: So they say that the dissociative disorders are all bogus because they're based on repression theory. 11:56 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no evidence for it. 11:57 [SPEAKER_03]: It's impossible to recover memories that never happens. 12:00 [SPEAKER_03]: What is it that Freud actually did and said? 12:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So if you actually read Freud, in 1895, he published a book with Breuer called Studies on Historia. 12:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a whole bunch of four partial DID cases. 12:13 [SPEAKER_03]: with lots of childhood trauma. 12:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And Brewer and Freud believed that the memories are, no memory is perfect. 12:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Basically, accurate, the abuse did happen. 12:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And the women come in their 20s, 30s, 40s, with symptoms that are directly tied back to childhood abuse, including sexual abuse, that actually happened. 12:33 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the whole theory. 12:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And they talk about their patients switching and having amnesia and talking in a different language or not remembering the language they were just talking in before and so on. 12:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Then in 1899, so this is the seduction theory. 12:45 [SPEAKER_03]: The symptoms are related to a quote, seduction, which is already a white wash name for rape and incest. 12:52 [SPEAKER_03]: But the symptoms are connected to actual sexual abuse that actually happened. 12:56 [SPEAKER_03]: That's the seduction theory. 12:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Then in 1897, in a letter to Wilhelm Flice, was a very strange surgeon who had very strange theories. 13:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Freud quotes repudiated the seduction theory. 13:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So then he's got a puzzle. 13:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Why are all these were been coming in with his adults with all these symptoms? 13:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Which they think come from abuse that actually happened, but it didn't happen. 13:24 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is a puzzle. 13:25 [SPEAKER_03]: So then Ben Freud, he has to come up with a theory to explain that. 13:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So from 1897 on, he by and large assumed that the memories were false. 13:35 [SPEAKER_03]: In order to explain why women have false memories of child and sexual abuse, he developed repression theory. 13:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So repression theory is actually created by Freud to explain why women have false memories. 13:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So the critics have got it completely backwards. 13:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And then in his 1917 essay on repression, Freud divides repression into two subtypes. 13:55 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's primal repression, which is, this is the id and the ego now, the id being the unconscious mind, the ego, the conscious mind. 14:04 [SPEAKER_03]: There's things in the id like impulses, desires, drives that are threatening to come up into the ego. 14:11 [SPEAKER_03]: ego's got some conflict about them, so it pushes them back down, it represses them. 14:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's primal repression. 14:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So that meaning of repression has absolutely nothing to do with outside events or memories or trauma or anything. 14:23 [SPEAKER_03]: The second meaning of repression is according to Freud. 14:27 [SPEAKER_03]: is repression proper. 14:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's this horizontal repression barrier. 14:32 [SPEAKER_03]: There's things that are in your conscious mind, memories, perceptions, et cetera, feelings, and you have a bunch of conflict foot, so you push them down across that horizontal barrier into your unconscious mind. 14:43 [SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, believing that the memories are possibly probably mostly not 100% accurate, believing that association is a legitimate thing and that the associated disorders are legitimate and working with 14:56 [SPEAKER_03]: All the parts of their conscious mind get along better talk to each other, share feelings planned together. 15:03 [SPEAKER_03]: which is what we do in therapy. 15:05 [SPEAKER_03]: That's based on treating or vertical split. 15:08 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no memory recovered from the unconscious mind. 15:11 [SPEAKER_03]: The memory's always been in the conscious mind. 15:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And it doesn't have to do with repression theory. 15:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Repression theory is a totally different concept. 15:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And actually there's repression based theories of depression, psychosis, substance abuse, everything else. 15:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And nobody says repression is a bogus diagnosis because it's based on repression theory. 15:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And also, in the DSM, there's no group of disorders called repression disorders. 15:36 [SPEAKER_03]: So nobody treats repression disorders. 15:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And nobody does recovered memory therapy. 15:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Recover therapy memory therapy is just a term invented by the false memory syndrome foundation. 15:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And then they attack all the therapists as if all they do is dig recover. 15:53 [SPEAKER_03]: which is a ridiculous caricature of how actual trauma therapy operates. 15:57 [SPEAKER_02]: When you watched the keepers, what did you think from when you observed all of that talk about, because of course they had an expert during the doro trial, basically say that repress memories doesn't exist. 16:11 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's Paul McCue, who I'm very familiar with. 16:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually have spoken along once briefly. 16:17 [SPEAKER_03]: former chairman of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins. 16:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I don't know this exact title, but a meritist professor at Johns Hopkins. 16:25 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the lead members of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, Devout Catholic, as he says, and the only psychiatrist appointed by the Catholic Church to the panel they put together in the early 2000s to figure out how to deal with all these accusations of sexual abuse by priests. 16:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And his position is not some or most, or it's hard to tell, have free single case of DID is 100% bogus. 16:51 [SPEAKER_03]: There is no real DID, and it's all false memories based on this crazy repression theory. 16:58 [SPEAKER_03]: So he's a absolute on that. 17:00 [SPEAKER_03]: He's also, there's a Wall Street Journal editorial that you can go go easily on gender identity. 17:07 [SPEAKER_03]: He's also basically saying that multiple personalities are crazed and that gender identity disorders are another crazed and we're harming all these people. 17:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So he's not consistent with mainstream, are not based on evidence. 17:22 [SPEAKER_03]: He just uses his authority. 17:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Paul McCue, I was chairman of Hopkins, I've published all these books, and then says with complete confidence, this is bogus, this is bogus, this is bogus, with no evidence, no research to back himself up. 17:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so one final comment on repression theory, this is the light, the guys like Paul McCue and some of these other false memory people. 17:43 [SPEAKER_03]: We'll say there's no, they don't say there's a little or there's a problem or they say there is no zero none. 17:52 [SPEAKER_03]: No scientific evidence for recovered memory. 17:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Why is this ridiculous? 17:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I'll ask you guys and I'll ask the listeners, who is a famous Hollywood actor whose first name is Mel and second name starts G-I-B-S. 18:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So, and all of a sudden, everybody remembers all Mel Gibson. 18:13 [SPEAKER_03]: What are some movies that Mel Gibson was in? 18:15 [SPEAKER_03]: I hope nobody was thinking about Mel Gibson until I brought that up. 18:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody who listened to me asked that question, suddenly recovered their memories about Mel Gibson that were not in their conscious mind before that. 18:28 [SPEAKER_03]: This is completing normal psychology. 18:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It happens to everybody. 18:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Zillions of times per day, that's how the brain works. 18:34 [SPEAKER_03]: There's information stored out of conscious awareness, and you can retrieve it. 18:38 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a gigantic psychology literature on memory retrieval. 18:43 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to register something like as you have to be awake. 18:47 [SPEAKER_03]: You see it. 18:47 [SPEAKER_03]: If you can hear it, and then you store it, and then you retrieve it. 18:52 [SPEAKER_03]: These are the steps in normal memory. 18:55 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's 18:56 [SPEAKER_03]: It likely comes in thousands of published studies on memory retrieval, what favors it, what hinders it, what types of memories are easily retrieved, what are difficult to retrieve, and these are all in experiments they're well controlled. 19:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So nobody says there's no such thing as memory retrieval. 19:14 [SPEAKER_03]: In memory retrieval, in the scientific literature, it's divided into spontaneous recall and cute recall. 19:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Suspontaneous recall is you just remember. 19:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, there's thousands and thousands of experiments on cute recall that is, say, college student memorizes a list of words, or say, pairs of words, and then two weeks later, they're brought back. 19:36 [SPEAKER_03]: And they're asked to write down as many of the word pairs as they can remember. 19:40 [SPEAKER_03]: So they may be, say, remember 60% of them. 19:43 [SPEAKER_03]: That is, they have amnesia, quotes, for having experienced this word list. 19:49 [SPEAKER_03]: So they actually had the experience. 19:51 [SPEAKER_03]: They actually can't remember those words. 19:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the word pairs might be R E A D, R E D. So then the experimenters will say, what's a tall plant that grows in marshes? 20:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Now go, oh, I read. 20:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, the word pair was read, read. 20:09 [SPEAKER_03]: The completely normal nothing surprising about it. 20:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And so this is cute recall. 20:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's also tons of experimental evidence 20:19 [SPEAKER_03]: you remember more than you did before you started trying to remember. 20:23 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's also tons of experimental evidence that by and large, most cute and spontaneous recall is accurate, but it's not perfect. 20:32 [SPEAKER_03]: So actually recovered memory, if you don't call it recovered memory, if you call it retrieved memory, spontaneous or cute, it's like one of the most common human experiences in the most, 20:44 [SPEAKER_03]: scientifically proven things in psychology, but if you call it recovered memory, based on repression theory, then all these people get all upset about Freud and theories and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 20:58 [SPEAKER_03]: But if we just called it memory retrieval, 21:01 [SPEAKER_03]: everybody go, of course, yeah, we retrieve memories all the time. 21:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And therapy is just entered the memory part of therapy is just a whole bunch of repeated recall effort and queued retrieval. 21:14 [SPEAKER_03]: It's absolutely totally scientific, common sense, nothing out of the ordinary budget. 21:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And we know scientifically that if you queue, you'll get more memory retrieval. 21:24 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not going to be 100% accurate. 21:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not also not going to be 100% bogus punishments. 21:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really glad that you explained that. 21:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, and I think that our listeners, especially those who are survivors of abuse, are probably going to be shaking their heads and saying he understands what I've been feeling. 21:41 [SPEAKER_00]: He's articulating what I've been feeling because it's very frustrating for the women and the men that I know because of the keepers who can't get a handle on what happened to them. 21:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And you have the knowledge and the background to make sense of some of what they're experiencing. 22:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And so why do people block things out? 22:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, it's completely unmisturious. 22:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Who would want to remember that and know that and feel that? 22:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Do overwhelming. 22:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, it's not puzzling. 22:11 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not because there's something defective about you. 22:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody would want to remember that. 22:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Some people have to believe the block at out. 22:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Others are not so lucky. 22:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. 22:20 [SPEAKER_02]: We came across your work, Dr. Ross, because of a documentary that we actually found on him as on-prime video, specifically on my control. 22:29 [SPEAKER_02]: In the video, I talked about the CIA program in K Ultra. 22:34 [SPEAKER_02]: On Amazon Prime, if our listeners want to find this specific documentary, it's called Mind Control, MK Ultra. 22:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Jim and I have been working currently to find out if it's possible if Father Masker was involved with this program, the CIA program, MK Ultra. 22:51 [SPEAKER_02]: We first started to entertain this idea and to follow up on this lead because of a few facts that we know. 22:58 [SPEAKER_02]: For example, Father Masco was involved with the Johns Hopkins University back then I believe it was a college. 23:05 [SPEAKER_02]: We know definitely they were participating in MK Ultra. 23:09 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a document in fact. 23:10 [SPEAKER_03]: I have the documents from the CIA to prove that. 23:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the financial record is that right? 23:14 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that it was happening at the same time, 23:17 [SPEAKER_02]: in the Baltimore area, while the abuse was happening to many of the survivors. 23:22 [SPEAKER_02]: We also know much of the experiences that our survivors went through, fallen in line with the kind of procedures that this MK Ultra program was looking for and performing and we know they were doing it on, 23:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, unwitting civilians. 23:38 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you tell me what is the MK Ultra program? 23:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So one of my books is called the CIA Doctors. 23:44 [SPEAKER_03]: It's absolutely a 100% based on documents. 23:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing that patient told their stories I heard. 23:51 [SPEAKER_03]: In documents equals 50,000 pages of documents, plus a lot of papers published in journals. 23:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And I got into this. 23:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I moved from Canada to Texas late 91. 24:05 [SPEAKER_03]: They were just abused at home. 24:06 [SPEAKER_03]: They were taken to laboratories, taken on military bases, in all kinds of experimental things. 24:12 [SPEAKER_03]: We're done to them. 24:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I thought, well, that's pretty weird. 24:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I never heard of that. 24:17 [SPEAKER_03]: So then I started looking into it, got all the documents. 24:21 [SPEAKER_03]: So the CIA was created in 1947. 24:24 [SPEAKER_03]: During the war, there was a entity called the Office of Strategic Services, the OSS. 24:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It was created to coordinate all of the military civilian U.S. intelligence during the Second World War. 24:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Then it was disbanded in 1945, but the personnel were brought back together in the CIA who was created in 1947. 24:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And in 1950, the first mine control program that was been declassified that we know about was signed in operation by the director of the CIA, and that was an April 1950. 24:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Important point there is that was three months before the start of the Korean War in June, or two months at least. 25:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And when all of this MK Ultra stuff was coming out into the Senate committee hearings in the 70s, 25:11 [SPEAKER_03]: official position of the CIA, and people were testifying for the CIA, was, oh, we just developed that defensively in response to what the Communist Chinese were doing, brainwashing our pilots. 25:24 [SPEAKER_03]: But actually, in fact, that's not true, because bluebird operation, bluebird was signed in operation, April 1950. 25:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It was them in role. 25:33 [SPEAKER_03]: It was rolled over into Project Artichoke. 25:37 [SPEAKER_03]: which in turn was rolled over into MK-Alcher, which ran kind of 1954 to 64, 63, 4. 25:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Then MK-Alcher was rolled over into MK search, which ran until 72, 3-ish. 25:51 [SPEAKER_03]: So often MK-Alcher is used as like a umbrella term for all these different wine control programs, but actually it was a specific program that had 149 sub-projects, 26:03 [SPEAKER_03]: and the investigators about a third or more clear to top secret. 26:09 [SPEAKER_03]: So the new CIM money, a third of them, a lot of them were just chemical contracts to get certain chemicals and so on. 26:16 [SPEAKER_03]: But of the academic psychology oriented contracts, about a third of them were unwitting contractors. 26:24 [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't know what CIM money because it was funded through a front organization and one of those was called the Human Ecology Foundation. 26:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Two chairman prior to Paul McCue at Johns Hopkins, John White-Worn, that chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins, was on the board of the Human College Foundation, so therefore, was clear to top secret and was working on contract CIA. 26:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Another prior chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins was an LSD researcher who was funded by organizations that were also often co-funded by the U.S. 27:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And Paul McEwen himself did brain electrode implant experiments on monkeys at Walter Reed Hospital. 27:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And brain electrode experiments on monkeys and humans were funded by the CIA, the Office of Naval Research and other elements of the military. 27:21 [SPEAKER_03]: The intelligence complex, so there's a lot of connections in Baltimore and with Johns Hopkins, and they're definitely with CI experimentation going on. 28:11 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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