0:08 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching. 0:27 [SPEAKER_01]: There's Cheryl Hershev and her sister, they were put through military training, weapons training. 0:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I was a terrible marksman. 0:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad I was a terrible marksman. 0:37 [SPEAKER_01]: They train assassins. 0:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that sounds like it's coming out of a movie, but... 0:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I can explain how you do that. 0:47 [SPEAKER_01]: If you take a young child in four or five times a year, you strap that child in a chair and torture them, you're going to get that child to do pretty much what you want. 0:57 [SPEAKER_02]: You have years to few words that are new to us and our listeners. 1:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to let you deal with the words in order you want to. 1:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But you've talked about contractors 1:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you talked about handlers and I know from your perspective those have different meanings than they would to me. 1:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So could you explain what contractors and handlers are? 1:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I say it's just the way they set up these programs, they can be highly compartmentalized. 1:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to 1:35 [SPEAKER_01]: one person working for you to know the whole scope of what's happening. 1:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's documented. 1:42 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that from the M.K. 1:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Ultra Documents. 1:45 [SPEAKER_01]: They had a lot of civilians that they would contract, just regular old academics, working in institutions. 1:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And they would give them one very small segment of a procedure to do experiments with. 1:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And that wouldn't hurt anybody. 1:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They would just be, you could carry that out and even publish it. 2:04 [SPEAKER_01]: of another procedure that then they would go and use in virtual apps. 2:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So by contractor, a lot of the people carrying out this work, we're just that if they could be short-term contractors, as opposed to personality, we're higher up following individual subjects through various facilities and watching the progress, like my person 2:29 [SPEAKER_01]: of course there are people hired in that. 2:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope that gets to what I mean by contractor. 2:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it thinks they're being paid. 2:38 [SPEAKER_02]: They have they have on track with government, right? 2:41 [SPEAKER_02]: They're being hired by the government to do this work. 2:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, under the auspices of benefiting our country. 2:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is fun. 2:51 [SPEAKER_01]: When this was going on, it was the Cold War and we were trying to, that was excuse given anyway. 2:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We were trying to out do Russia. 2:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Russia had its own programs like this, as far as I know, I've read some documents that were released. 3:05 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, handlers, what happens in the labs with the torture, it's conditioning. 3:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like classical conditioning or punishment. 3:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Only the punishment is torture. 3:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But the torture also produces fear and other fighter flight responses to a level where you associate. 3:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you get trained or conditioned even further after you're already in that state and it's associated state. 3:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So a handler could be like, 3:38 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm going to use word babysitter, but they're like the hands on, they take you where you need to go. 3:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And no, yeah, I was getting there. 3:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So when they're conditioning you, they associate a trigger cue. 3:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be a noise, a set of words. 3:58 [SPEAKER_01]: it can be a visual symbol, but when you encounter that in your normative life, so you say you're out in normative life and you encounter that mentally you're going to obey and you're going to switch whoever's in control of the body and then follow the order. 4:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever order is implicit in that. 4:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what a handler does. 4:22 [SPEAKER_01]: A handler keeps track of you. 4:24 [SPEAKER_01]: A handler doesn't even have to 4:27 [SPEAKER_01]: handlers that live in other states and what they do is at this point with me now because I'm not operational, I mean, they can't use me anymore. 4:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But they want to make sure that I don't break down too much of my conditioning and spill the beans like I am right right now. 4:44 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't want that. 4:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll get phone calls, I'll get messages over the computer that have 4:55 [SPEAKER_01]: from a handler. 4:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've had a couple of handlers that just they sound like they're reading from a script. 5:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's a file somewhere and the handler's just reading the words off of the script. 5:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, remember when color ID first came up short? 5:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I got a call and I looked at color ID and it said Los Alamos, national apps. 5:17 [SPEAKER_02]: It said where? 5:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Los Alamos, national apps. 5:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 5:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're not perfect. 5:24 [SPEAKER_01]: They mess up. 5:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They leave evidence around my ex partner that I was with for 17 years. 5:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes he would pick up the phone and he'd just hear a tone from your general A to tell. 5:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh. 5:36 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what a handler does. 5:37 [SPEAKER_01]: A handler makes sure that you're still obeying. 5:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You're still, you haven't broken your conditioning. 5:43 [SPEAKER_01]: If you go into therapy, you're not breaking too much in the dissociation. 5:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And they all can trigger you to do operations, but like I said, I'm not operational anymore, which means that you're not susceptible to the trigger words or that you have you have worked through the altar. 6:05 [SPEAKER_02]: personalities so that you're, what does the word when you're all back together or get them? 6:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I forget it. 6:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not integrated. 6:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not integrated. 6:14 [SPEAKER_01]: What I mean by operational is I'm not going to be sent out on some sort of operation. 6:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be sent to some politician to do some so that they can blackmail him. 6:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be sent on a career mission. 6:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So my system is to it's not reliable anymore. 6:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I've done enough work in therapy so that it's my system is just not reliable. 6:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember too much. 6:42 [SPEAKER_02]: When did the child who had experimentation stop? 6:47 [SPEAKER_02]: How old were you? 6:48 [SPEAKER_01]: 14 or 15, although I'm thinking, 6:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not quite sure working through, I'm not quite finished working through that time in my life because I was spending more and more time with my father. 7:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's one thing when there's a strange guy in a lab coat that's hurting you. 7:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's another thing when it's your father. 7:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's been, it's taking longer to get to those memories. 7:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I recently, I've been working on a series of memories for when I was 14. 7:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was taken to Chicago and they were using a meat pack in plant and they had a virtual assembly line of subjects for girls my age going on in that plant and they used the animal carcasses to torture us and yeah it was it's it was sick and I 7:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm still working on that, but they do get to a point where, okay, your system is pretty well set and this usually happens in early to midteens and they do then they start with conditioning you for security. 8:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So for some reason your system starts to break down and the memories of the lab start leaking into normative or day-to-day life like when you have to go to school. 8:14 [SPEAKER_01]: and there's a little security, there's some security conditioning where you report on yourself so you build in that kind of conditioning around that age. 8:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you're ready to be used. 8:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So what happened when you were about 14 and you're did your family move again or did you stay in the normative world as you call it? 8:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So we left Birmingham. 8:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We moved back to Detroit in January of 79. 8:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And we were there only for a year. 8:44 [SPEAKER_01]: My father was traveling all over the world. 8:46 [SPEAKER_01]: He was going to China and Mexico and spent almost a year working in Dusseldorf, Germany. 8:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he was back home again. 8:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He was going to be sent to Hyro to Egypt. 9:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So after we moved to Detroit, we were there about nine months, then oh, we're going to move to Hyro. 9:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And that went on for a few months. 9:10 [SPEAKER_01]: No, we ended up moving to Chicago. 9:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So I graduated high school in Chicago. 9:16 [SPEAKER_00]: When your abuse was happening in Detroit, and when you were a really young, was that always at the pediatrician's office? 9:24 [SPEAKER_01]: No, there was that hospital room as well. 9:28 [SPEAKER_01]: There were also actual real hospital rooms. 9:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have a couple of memories when I was, you know, hospital room. 9:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so they were using just a normal hospital's facility at the time. 9:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 9:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 9:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember the exterior of the hospital and I've done that Google Street. 9:48 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a hospital that underwent an extreme renovation. 9:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's it, but I don't know for sure, so I don't want to see the hospital's name. 9:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have to go back to Detroit and drive around and look. 10:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have that in me. 10:04 [SPEAKER_00]: You're a really young man, right? 10:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 10:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So that'd be difficult. 10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: When you were moved to Alabama, did all of the abuse then happen in the NASA's government building? 10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: There were different facilities when I was an adolescent. 10:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Sanford University, who's a Sanford University, who's a Sanford with an end, because I've felt pregnant. 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's another horror story that I don't wanna overwhelm your audience with. 10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: There were the nasophyslides, the annex, and then the main facilities, and then my doctorate Sanford. 10:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But as far as the labs, 10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: That I think that was it in around Alabama, but there was always the private stuff so like the family stuff that the private stuff is going on too, but it changed because we didn't have the family and Birmingham. 11:00 [SPEAKER_01]: My father hooked up with some pretty. 11:03 [SPEAKER_01]: unpleasant people and occasionally it didn't happen nearly as often but occasionally on holidays we were going to a house I remember with the house it's like there would be one of those party because I religious thing where organic drug fields were it's were raped and everyone was doing everything to everybody. 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 11:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 11:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 11:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 11:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 12:06 [SPEAKER_00]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 12:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 12:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 12:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Start your journey today. 12:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Lynn, by the time you moved to Alabama, would you say that you were pretty well-conditioned? 12:37 [SPEAKER_01]: No, they just, I had had the basics done, but I always been a fighter. 12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I did everything. 12:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a very strong 12:57 [SPEAKER_01]: They tried to torture that out of me. 13:00 [SPEAKER_01]: They actually had a little brain wave signature for it. 13:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have a name for that part of me. 13:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I still have that part of me. 13:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't get that. 13:12 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I wasn't fully conditioned yet. 13:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I was highly dissociative. 13:16 [SPEAKER_01]: When I went to school, I was very socially awkward. 13:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I was not assertive. 13:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I had trouble moving my body because I had a lot of somatic pain, but I never said anything about it. 13:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I still have a lot of somatic pain. 13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And I knew I felt like an alien compared to the other kids. 13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I watched the other kids and, you know, the kids do when they scream and they run around and they flap their arms and they're just being silly. 13:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I would stare at them and go, how can they do that? 13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Where do they get the idea to move their arm like that? 13:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I didn't have permission. 13:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't move my hands a certain way. 13:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't, certainly couldn't raise my voice. 13:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but no, they weren't finished with me yet. 13:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you always remember what was going on or was there a certain point into this when you stopped remembering? 14:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember remembering. 14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when I was a tiny kid I had nightmares. 14:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a recurring nightmare. 14:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And that actually it never went away throughout my whole childhood, but it was really frequent. 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: when I was a young kid and I acted out. 14:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I would do weird stuff. 14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about carrying your neighbors again. 14:30 [SPEAKER_01]: There were other kids in the neighborhood and I would do weird stuff around them. 14:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember remembering about the labs. 14:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I just remember the feelings, the terror and that there were creepy men in my life that did creepy things to me. 14:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Wasn't I knew I wasn't allowed to remember in the daylight world in the normative world. 14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So I did I obey that rule, but there were some incidences of abuse that I never forgot and that's because I think it wasn't my extended family or my parents and didn't happen in the lab it happened between some boys that were friends and my brothers and my brother that happened when I was eight years old and I that I never forgot so by the time I went to college. 15:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I was a sexual abuse survivor, so I went therapy, and yeah, I just, I thought spend a few years in therapy, a recover from those incidences, yeah, and I'll go on with my life. 15:32 [SPEAKER_01]: and it just never really happened. 15:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk to us about what your adult life was like? 15:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And I also wanted to ask you where your parents part of the mind control so that did they use trigger words and stuff with you as you got older to keep you conditioned? 15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my father was a part of this whole thing. 16:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I have memories of being with him in the car and we had kids in the car taking them to. 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I won't go into that, but my mother, when my mother was taking me, she would be given a script of word to say to me to keep me conditioned and my father. 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm certain of the siren. 16:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you hear that? 16:22 [SPEAKER_01]: That's okay. 16:23 [SPEAKER_01]: My father, he knew about my system 16:31 [SPEAKER_01]: team of authors that were trained for rape and my father took advantage of that all the time. 16:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 16:39 [SPEAKER_02]: You said you went on operations with him. 16:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you mean CIA operations? 16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the trafficking of the children. 16:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, they yeah, went with them. 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That was in the 70s. 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a Friday before Christmas and 16:55 [SPEAKER_01]: there was going to be a huge ceremony. 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was in Northwest Georgia and a lot of their politicians. 17:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I just heard this, it was like a rumor, I didn't witness, I didn't see anyone I recognized. 17:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But I went with them and we had two children with us and they did not come back. 17:15 [SPEAKER_00]: was your dad an official employee of the CIA? 17:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so. 17:20 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no, there's no way to know, because you know what they say. 17:23 [SPEAKER_01]: They will not confirm or deny. 17:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So what is your adult life been like? 17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: As you are assuming you're not close to anybody and you're biological family. 17:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that correct? 17:33 [SPEAKER_01]: That's correct. 17:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I cut off contact in my, 17:37 [SPEAKER_01]: mid-20s, mid-delay 20s. 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: My adult life has been up and down. 17:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I, so I did manage to go off to college. 17:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was functional enough to get through college. 17:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I was there, I did women's studies, I used my whole world. 17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, if I knew I was an abuse survivor from the memories I didn't associate. 18:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So I worked on that. 18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I got political with it. 18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And I started to become a part of the sexual child sexual abuse survivor movement. 18:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And I used my artwork to do shows about child sexual abuse and help educate. 18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I got plundered into that whole community. 18:22 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I think I have an email to snap from the 1990s. 18:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Really? 18:27 [SPEAKER_01]: When they first formed, yeah, I talked to the guy. 18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I emailed the guy briefly. 18:33 [SPEAKER_01]: who formed SNAT. 18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have to look on my flop. 18:36 [SPEAKER_01]: He did his job. 18:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I got, so I was already telling you guys a little bit about this way. 18:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I got into this huge art show in Seattle. 18:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I was living in Atlanta at the time. 18:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was with my partner. 18:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And we came out for the show. 18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was hugely successful. 18:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It was about child sexual abuse. 18:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And we decided we were going to move here. 19:01 [SPEAKER_01]: because the show got offers to travel. 19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We got offers to travel that show across the country and internationally. 19:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a really powerful show. 19:12 [SPEAKER_01]: We got on the news, we got on the radio, got on the newspaper, it was really powerful. 19:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So we moved to Seattle from Atlanta. 19:20 [SPEAKER_01]: in 1991, and I started working on the show, but then in a couple of years, that whole false memory campaign hit and our offers dried up and the show went away. 19:33 [SPEAKER_01]: My symptoms just kept getting worse when we were somatics and some of so many bodies sometimes. 19:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was having, I wouldn't call them flashbacks. 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: They were more like sort of full body memories. 19:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And my state just went downhill. 19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: or most of my 30s, I didn't work at all. 19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't work. 19:53 [SPEAKER_01]: My symptoms were just too intense. 19:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And I also couldn't afford people who know how to treat people like me, or few, and far between. 20:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And they had good therapists, but they could only get so far with them. 20:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just muddled through. 20:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't paint a whole lot, but I painted some. 20:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And then things really changed. 20:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I gradually got better and better. 20:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I got diagnosed with the idea in my age with, I'm sorry, with what? 20:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did a sociative identity. 20:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got diagnosed in 1993, I think, in 1994. 20:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just gradually got better. 20:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I started seeing my therapist I see now in his been helping people like me for 30 years. 20:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's really important. 20:39 [SPEAKER_01]: to have somebody who can understand this is real, that's first and foremost, and then he's a really good trauma therapist, and, yeah. 20:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And I started getting better, and I left my partner in 2004, and ended up wearing him now in this artist community. 20:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I started to see, if I could do things, like, more people, if I started to see if I could, 21:04 [SPEAKER_01]: be part of an arts organization and sit on a board meeting. 21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Sit on a board meeting. 21:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me something. 21:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me something. 21:13 [SPEAKER_02]: That was about, Lynn, tell us about your art. 21:16 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll kind of art you do and tell us about the community where you live. 21:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you mentioned earlier that there was something in you that wouldn't let you forget that this was wrong. 21:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah. 21:29 [SPEAKER_02]: feels to me. 21:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't empathize. 21:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I have compassion, but it almost feels like that's what saved you, and that there are probably many people like you who were not as fortunate and are still living in some other parallel universe that doesn't make any sense. 21:48 [SPEAKER_02]: But can you tell us about your art and how you developed it? 21:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, even as a small kid, I should some ability to draw 21:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So I drew a lot in high school. 22:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I won a couple of awards. 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's always been the back of my head that well, maybe I'll be an artist, even though I was discouraged from it. 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I was encouraged to get a real job. 22:12 [SPEAKER_01]: People usually say to artists, yeah, I always drew and painted, but what came out in what I 22:19 [SPEAKER_01]: would make it always reflected my dissociation. 22:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was always figures, figures, blending, and twisted on top of each other and horrific imagery. 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was never gonna have a big successful art career like I wanted because there aren't a lot of people who want to hang really her things tough over their couch. 22:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But I got into the art community and I've done a lot of other things. 22:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I've cured, I grant a couple of small galleries for a number of years. 22:50 [SPEAKER_01]: coordinated studio rentals. 22:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I did community, community-wide, or projects. 22:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I started in art festival, come leaders ago. 22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And it only ran for two years, but we blocked off the sidewalk in downtown that we blocked the street in downtown Seattle. 23:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was a lot of fun. 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But I got overwhelmed. 23:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It was too much. 23:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I overextended myself. 23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And during the same time, I'm still trying to go to therapy and work on torture memories. 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it was too much. 23:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have, now, step, I haven't done any arts activities now in a few years. 23:27 [SPEAKER_01]: All I do now is I work. 23:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And I go and, 23:32 [SPEAKER_01]: recover from those torture memories and break down my conditioning. 23:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Is there someplace online that we can look at your artwork? 23:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I actually have two sites. 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: My main art site is linshermer.com. 23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I have a site that I'm going to be updating. 23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't been updated in 10 years and it's well overdue. 23:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's lins art.net and that has more of my the awful side of my life. 24:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It has more of that. 24:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But it has some of my journal drawings and explanations about how all the stuff works. 24:10 [SPEAKER_00]: When I'm actually all looking on your site right now, the Lynn, you pronounce your last name is Schermer. 24:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 24:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So Lynn Schermer.com. 24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 24:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Your artwork is so amazing. 24:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm looking at your drawings right now and they just blow my mind away kind of gives you an inside lock of maybe what you've been through some of it is very I don't even know the vocabulary to describe it. 24:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Shane yeah it's how I've been able to tell because you know there aren't there are very few people who can listen to this and so my art speaks for me and spoken for me for 30 years. 24:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I can definitely see that. 24:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Linda, do you think this kind of conditioning with children is still going on? 24:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 24:57 [SPEAKER_02]: What would lead you to think that? 25:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we still have people where it didn't, there was some flaw in the work, so it doesn't. 25:08 [SPEAKER_01]: work as well as it should and they remember and these are young people still coming forward today people in their teens and 20s. 25:16 [SPEAKER_00]: When did you start remembering and I'm sorry if you've already touched on this but I didn't quite catch that when did you start remembering this specific altered type of abuse that happened? 25:27 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really hard to pinpoint because I had the symptoms, I had flashbacks 25:38 [SPEAKER_01]: one before I was able, I felt safe enough to process one of the memories. 25:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It was many years building up and I would say it was around, it would be the late 90s or 2000s. 25:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And did you say that you have been punished for talking about this? 25:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, can you explain to us what you mean? 26:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I was part of an art show a few years ago about the stigma of mental illness and my role in that art show was to say, I don't have a mental illness, horrible things happen to me, I have natural coping responses. 26:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And part of the show, it traveled around Seattle a little bit and we would do artist talks to the public and it traveled to Seattle City Hall and I gave a talk 26:32 [SPEAKER_01]: about my history, afterwards someone that I thought was a friend started behaving rather strangely and I don't want to go into the details, but I ended up being abducted. 26:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I was on my way home and I was a perpetrator, God, in the car with me, and hurt me. 26:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was arranged by a friend 27:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. 27:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So I stopped. 27:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I was publishing articles on my other website, WordPress, up until that point, and I just a step back. 27:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I had to reassess a lot of people in my life. 27:16 [SPEAKER_01]: That's another thing is, you know that feeling when you meet someone and you feel like, 27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I totally get you, it's just an intuitive kind of feeling or I've known you my whole life, I feel like I've known you my whole life. 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you fall into friendship. 27:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot trust that feeling. 27:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't trust it. 27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Problem. 27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a few friends that turned out to be not safe. 27:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, so I had to cut those friends out of my life. 27:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the following year, I got a death threat, but that was from a known handler. 27:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, are these people from your past or these people who are like, 27:56 [SPEAKER_02]: younger versions of that. 27:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Younger versions and people that I've met over the last, I don't know, five or six years, eight years, maybe. 28:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Then what can we do to help protect you from any kind of backlash for being so courageous? 28:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a few things in place. 28:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever heard of a dead man's letter? 28:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I have that and there is a thought that the speaking out is a 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Can't be a kind of protect of something happens after you speak out and it makes it a little bit more suspicious. 28:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you guys can do. 28:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the most important thing here is that more people who are. 28:37 [SPEAKER_01]: open to learning about these programs and in biggest hurdle is emotional because you have to think, oh my God, my tax money has been going towards this. 28:50 [SPEAKER_01]: My, what is my government doing? 28:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people can't handle that. 28:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just too much. 28:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But the more people who can get close to accepting that than we might have a chance of actually forcing 29:05 [SPEAKER_02]: some sort of action against any action we can take as as advocates for you or for others who are in your situation. 29:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're doing it, Gemma. 29:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You and Shane are doing it right now. 29:19 [SPEAKER_01]: This is starting at the ground level. 29:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't demand hearings for these are human rights abuses long 70 years of human rights abuses. 29:28 [SPEAKER_01]: sure demand hearings on that unless we have enough people to make the demand. 29:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So as long as survivors like me are ridiculed and disbelieved, then these crimes continue, which is all part of the plan to miss not credible. 29:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. 29:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Linda, last question that I had that I wanted to ask you, you mentioned that you've seen the keepers when you watched it and you learned about the abuse 29:58 [SPEAKER_00]: and combining that with your knowledge about the MK Ultra program and what type of abuse they were doing. 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: In your mind, do you think that those two events could be related? 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what I thought after I had time to calm down and get some clarity and really think about it, my thought was there could be rumors among networks of people. 30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And my thought was 30:25 [SPEAKER_01]: was not running maybe not an official operation, where he was actually contracted. 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: He was running like a side project. 30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And whoever his contact was to run that side projects, they were sloppy. 30:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, but they were sloppy, and Maskel was sloppy. 30:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Baring papers in a graveyard, that was sloppy. 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not something the people that worked on me when I was a kid, that's not something they ever would have done. 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So it makes me think that there is a tangential connection perhaps through Richter or maybe through some colleague of Maskels who whispered and said, hey, have you heard what they're doing over there? 31:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's try this or something like that. 31:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was one. 31:15 [SPEAKER_02]: He was a psychiatrist or a psychiatrist who was who would travel around the Catholic high schools and administer psychological tests. 31:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And Maspo was not authorized to be giving these personality tests, but this other guy was I do think you're right with that, man. 31:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're really perceptive. 31:36 [SPEAKER_02]: and based on your own experience, it makes a lot of sense because we know that masks will try to get grants at Hopkins and was turned down. 31:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I think he tried very hard to be a contractor. 31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 31:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. 31:52 [SPEAKER_01]: There's another thing, and we know that Hopkins and Walter Reed, they're deep in this stuff. 31:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I wanted to offer this. 32:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a survivor, same, she went through when I went through, who had documentary evidence. 32:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And her name was Karen Coleman Wilcher. 32:09 [SPEAKER_01]: She passed away quite a long time ago now back in the 90s, but she had a transport order, 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: from Johns Hopkins to Walter Reed to be experimented on at Walter Reed. 32:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was in 1965. 32:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's pretty rare for us to have any sort of documentation like that, versus it. 32:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you said our name was Karen Thomas Welcher. 32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Karen Coleman. 32:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Coleman. 32:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, is there documentation online that we'd be available to read? 32:40 [SPEAKER_02]: If anybody wanted to do that? 32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know if there's anything up about Karen right now. 32:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I have that document somewhere and one of my old computers. 32:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So if anyone wants it, I can try to dig it out. 32:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Lynn, we want to give you the opportunity to say anything at all that you would like to say to our listeners or about yourself or your life. 33:05 [SPEAKER_02]: So the stage is yours. 33:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I miss something in my retellings. 33:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's specific, you know, the specifics of how they're conditioning works. 33:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, logically. 33:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I miss that. 33:17 [SPEAKER_01]: But there are places you can read about it. 33:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want people to know, and I'm going to lose it again. 33:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll take it already. 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I was taking it as a three-year-old kid in torture. 33:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was fun, but by text money, and I have been tortured and followed my whole life. 33:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't ask for any of that. 33:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more people started paying attention and I know it's hard to pay attention because a lot of this sound, quite, oh, it sounds out there and a lot of this don't come across as very credible because can you imagine how credible you would sound after being tortured. 33:58 [SPEAKER_01]: throughout your childhood, and traffic didn't break. 34:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not gonna let's another way it stays. 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Stop. 34:04 [SPEAKER_02]: What would you recommend if someone listening to you thinks that this happened to them? 34:11 [SPEAKER_02]: What would you recommend that they do about it? 34:13 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to go to therapy. 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You've got to have some sort of safe environment a way to have a safe relationship with someone. 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: where you can learn to trust and work through the trauma, but it's better to work with someone you've already knows about this stuff. 34:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Just so when you're saying, oh, I remember this room and this other thing, this weird thing in the corner, and they don't look at you like you're just, you know, they've heard it before. 34:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's an A number one. 34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no, you've got to break the conditioning down, because you won't be safe until you break that conditioning. 34:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And how would they find the right kind of therapist? 34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like it's a real specialized kind of treatment. 35:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, and it's not easy to find people. 35:06 [SPEAKER_01]: The ISS TV, I guess you could contact them and what is that? 35:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the international, something or dissociative and traumatic stress disorders. 35:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's a little bit of, yeah, we'll find it, right, Shay, we'll find it. 35:24 [SPEAKER_00]: One question in, I'll probably cut this out. 35:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just nip nose and around on your website. 35:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And I came across a link that you had put for, and I'm gonna quote it, SI and age experiment, experiment on two children. 35:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 35:39 [SPEAKER_00]: That document that I'm looking at is crazy to read. 35:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And I already sent it over to you, Gemma, so when we finished this, you can read it. 35:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been scamming through it. 35:48 [SPEAKER_00]: What am I looking at? 35:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, where was this document from? 35:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That's from the release of the MK Ultra files of the subsequent so the hearings in 1977. 35:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, so the CIA actually released this document. 36:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 36:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. 36:06 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I have not come across this. 36:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It's nuts, Gemma, when you read it. 36:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It talks about similar to what one has been explaining, but they're basically observing. 36:16 [SPEAKER_00]: how they are creating these children to dissociate. 36:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy. 36:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And it looks like an official old document. 36:24 [SPEAKER_00]: This one is from 1951. 36:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Dr. Ross. 36:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Dr. Ross, come Ross told us that when the CIA tried to clean everything up, that they actually somehow overlooked a whole box of files, actually now have been released, maybe it came from there. 36:43 [SPEAKER_00]: The International Society for the Study of Trauma in Dissociation is a non-profit organization interested in advancing the scientific understanding of trauma-based disorders. 36:56 [SPEAKER_00]: The document we discussed at the end of this episode, we will go into further detail next week. 37:10 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching
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