0:08 [SPEAKER_01]: How does LSD fit into the program? 0:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you mentioned LSD a few minutes ago. 0:30 [SPEAKER_02]: One of my recent papers is called, I think it's called LSD Experiments by the US Army. 0:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a detailed history of the so the army, the Air Force, the Navy, and the CIA all did LSD experiments. 0:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And these included under MK Ultra and related programs. 0:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And basically what they were doing is trying to figure out if LSD could be used in interrogations to soften somebody up so that they would give you information. 0:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And some of the experiments, this is in the documents, they're in detail, they explicitly 1:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And the 1975 General Council for the U.S. Army had a Senate committee hearing released a list of about 125 different compounds that the army had tested for my control purposes so that many different compounds, including B.Z. 1:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Letter B. 1:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Letter Z, which was kind of superlusty to put you on a asset trip. 1:32 [SPEAKER_02]: The movie Jacob's letter opens with a combat scene 1:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And the soldiers are like completely tripped out and just looking around and completely disoriented. 1:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And in the course of the movie, it comes up that they had been dosed with B.Z., which is a fictional movie, but has been out in the public domain for many decades. 1:52 [SPEAKER_02]: The LSD is only a tip of the iceberg. 1:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We asked some of the survivors if they had questions that they would like us to discuss with you. 1:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Jim, I'll let you ask the first one. 2:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and before I do this, I want both Dr. Ross and our listeners to know that the recent training I began to look into the MK Ultra facet of this is because of Jean Wainer, who is Jane Doe, and Dr. Ross who saw her almost the whole episode too. 2:21 [SPEAKER_00]: for talking about what happened to her. 2:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So she is the one that really started us thinking in that direction and I know she's listening to every word you have to say because she and the women that ascending questions I really do believe they were programmed. 2:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And they believe right now, at least one of them, that Dr. Christian Richter, who was the gynecologist that Massville took girls to for surgical procedures that in a Catholic hospital would have been illegal. 2:54 [SPEAKER_00]: They were build as DNC's, but they turned out to be abortions. 2:58 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the women has told us that he trafficked her to excuse me, NASA in Alabama, 3:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And to a hospital in Boston, where he demonstrated a shot box that he had invented. 3:11 [SPEAKER_00]: She was eight years old, and this continued until she was 14, her parents were compensated. 3:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Now she came from a really dysfunctional family. 3:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But her parents were compensated, and they moved to Alabama for the six years that 3:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Richter and she calls it her team of handlers were working with her. 3:31 [SPEAKER_00]: She totally believes this happened. 3:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I have questions from the women that we know from KEO. 3:38 [SPEAKER_00]: The first one says, when I was in my 20s, I was missing large gaps in my personal history. 3:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I could not remember whole years. 3:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was due to trauma. 3:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I was sent to a ritual abuse doctor in the 90s. 3:56 [SPEAKER_00]: He agreed I was ritualized, sexually abused. 4:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody could help me. 4:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I used to get waves of feelings of wanting to kill myself. 4:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I could not recognize my own hand if I was laying in bed. 4:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought I killed somebody. 4:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I felt guilt. 4:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was taught that fake memories could have been implanted with fake pictures. 4:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this what false memory syndrome is? 4:23 [SPEAKER_02]: that's a little complicated, but I can answer. 4:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So, she's describing amnesia, which is one of the main association symptoms, and then not recognizing your own hand, that's de-personalization, which is another one of the main association symptoms. 4:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So, there's definitely a bunch of association going on, and it's not just a few little blips, because she's missing a couple of years 4:50 [SPEAKER_02]: which are obviously coming from inside or somewhere. 4:53 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just that she is going, my life is bad, I think I might kill myself. 4:58 [SPEAKER_02]: It's intruding into her as a wave that feels like it's not coming from her, which it obviously is. 5:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It's intruding from somewhere else in her mind, therefore it's been associated or disconnected. 5:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So she also has dissociated, disconnected feelings and impulses. 5:15 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's fairly complex amount of dissociation going. 5:20 [SPEAKER_02]: The false memory syndromes, it just is what it says. 5:23 [SPEAKER_02]: You have a bunch of memories in their false. 5:25 [SPEAKER_02]: They never happened. 5:27 [SPEAKER_02]: What are the possible causes of false memory syndrome? 5:31 [SPEAKER_02]: One could just be normal memory here. 5:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Another could be, you went to, this is the false memory syndrome foundation says, you go see a therapist in the therapist to ask you all these lead things suggestive questions and reinforces the idea that you have suffered people inside and you end up 5:48 [SPEAKER_02]: with a, it's called Eactrogenic, meaning created by the therapist or the doctor. 5:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So you end up creating this DID, just to cooperate with a therapist or the doctor. 5:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You believe it's real. 6:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You believe the memories are real, but they've just been suggested to you by leading questions and then your mind is built a picture. 6:07 [SPEAKER_02]: That's usually how they describe false memory syndrome. 6:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But, 6:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Another way that false members could be created is on purpose to cover up either abuse or military or intelligence program. 6:20 [SPEAKER_02]: This is all psychologically possible, but obviously I can't prove it or just prove it. 6:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Now she was, I should have said this, but she was sexually abused by father Joseph Maskel, who was the chaplain at our high school as well as some other men who he hypnotized 6:42 [SPEAKER_00]: and other men paid. 6:46 [SPEAKER_00]: to come in actually into the school building. 6:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a fire door at the back of his office. 6:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And she remembers pieces of being abused by other men. 6:56 [SPEAKER_00]: She has, for most of her life, she was not able to even talk about this. 7:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's only been in the last few years that she's been able to articulate what happened to her. 7:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And she really believes that she was programmed so that she talked about it, she would help herself. 7:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that a possibility? 7:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I'll talk about programming here for a second. 7:18 [SPEAKER_02]: But just to back up a step. 7:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So what she's describing is an organized pedophile and ring. 7:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So we know for absolute fact that child pornography is like a billion dollar industry in the United States that perpetrator rings of 678 busted. 7:36 [SPEAKER_02]: It's in the news. 7:37 [SPEAKER_02]: They have all the videos. 7:39 [SPEAKER_02]: He mail traffic. 7:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a fact. 7:43 [SPEAKER_02]: that organized pedophile rains are numerous, and lots of lots of money spend on them. 7:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And so my known huge number of children have been abused, not via, I've not tanned not a couple hundred. 7:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So either thousands or tens of thousands are possibly millions of children. 7:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a big number. 8:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolute fact, FBI would say, yes, that's true. 8:05 [SPEAKER_02]: So, if we forget the MK Ultra and the LSD part of it and we just listen collectively to all the women who testified or talked to you, there's clearly more than one pre-stimple. 8:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So, the only options are it's all false memories, 100% or multiple priests were involved. 8:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, I think multiple priests were involved. 8:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So, that is already 100% guaranteed a pedophile ring. 8:32 [SPEAKER_02]: But now the question becomes, okay, so we've got an institution, a church that's done this massive cover-up denial stalling. 8:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And we've got the priests in who are being transferred around, the same story we hear all the time, and Father Moscow's just another example. 8:51 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't discipline them, they don't kick them out, they transfer them around, they cover them up, they won't release any of the documents. 9:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It's this really twisted, contorted mixture of God, love, the church, sexual abuse. 9:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's your fault. 9:11 [SPEAKER_02]: You're a slot hero or I'm the good guy. 9:14 [SPEAKER_02]: God wants you to do this for me. 9:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so distorted and twisted mixed up. 9:19 [SPEAKER_02]: But we think people like that would not be involved in a more organized outside 9:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Why would anybody think that? 9:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's completely plausible. 9:33 [SPEAKER_02]: In terms of the CIA military, the government NASA being involved, again, I can't prove it. 9:41 [SPEAKER_02]: No, we could disprove it. 9:43 [SPEAKER_02]: But all these elements of programming that is hypnosis, drugs, memorization, expert exercises, codes being implanted, are described in the CIA 9:59 [SPEAKER_02]: So they would hypnotize somebody who's sometimes just a secretary in the C&A, who's a good hypnotic subject. 10:07 [SPEAKER_02]: They hypnotize their implant code, which could be a tone on the telephone, could be a handsignal, could be a series of numbers. 10:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And then she comes out of hypnosis. 10:18 [SPEAKER_02]: She's carrying on with her day. 10:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And somebody does the tone, handsignal. 10:23 [SPEAKER_02]: or says the code, she switches into her hypnotized state. 10:27 [SPEAKER_02]: She goes in, retrieve some documents or hands off what she thinks is a bomb, or in one case pulls the trigger on what she thinks is a loaded gun to kill a military officer that she knows. 10:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, it was all not real bullets. 10:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So all these things are described in great detail in the CIA documents. 10:48 [SPEAKER_02]: They actually happened for sure. 10:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And so those kind of things went on. 10:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's plausible, it's possible. 10:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And hypnosis played a big role in all of this in him, culture. 11:00 [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing about it that's impossible, or that doesn't exactly fit other experiments and other projects that are actually done for sure document. 11:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it possible for a post-technotic suggestion to last for 50 years? 11:15 [SPEAKER_02]: The skeptics will say no. 11:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But how do they know so yeah, never happened to them, but post hypnotic suggestions are like completely validated in the analysis literature there's no question about that and they can last it sounds like months to years in the so this is now we're getting into 11:38 [SPEAKER_02]: multiple personality created experimentally by the military or the CIA. 11:43 [SPEAKER_02]: They have implanted codes and signals. 11:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And those codes and signals are used to switch them into their programed identity to carry out whatever mission. 11:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the intervals are not exactly stated in the documents, but it seems, it's at least months and maybe years. 11:59 [SPEAKER_02]: So then this is what the CIA and the military say that it can last at least months or years. 12:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Another question, another survivor asked is, priest Joseph Maskel used many tricks on me. 12:11 [SPEAKER_01]: He thought I was asleep. 12:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Another man was in the room and I heard the words, truth theorem. 12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I'm screwed now. 12:19 [SPEAKER_01]: What would truth theorem do? 12:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Truth theorem is usually used for sodium amitol. 12:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a whole sodium amitol literature it was used by psychiatrists. 12:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a birth metric medication that you can give IV. 12:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, in the Second World War, there were soldiers who went into fugues states that is their wandering around behind the main front, their loss. 12:41 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't know who they are, and they're given sodium amitall, which basically is just like getting them drunk. 12:48 [SPEAKER_02]: It just gets you stoned, if you get too stoned, you actually fall asleep, and it releases your inhibitions and all of a sudden your identity comes back. 13:01 [SPEAKER_02]: up until the 80s faded out for one reason because insurance companies wouldn't pay for it. 13:08 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's very useful in contemporary psychiatry when somebody's catatonic that is their totally frozen. 13:14 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not moving. 13:15 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not eating. 13:16 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not drinking. 13:17 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things you can do is give them valiant type drug or sodium amital and they just come out of it. 13:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Which I did with one person back in Canada before I moved to the US. 13:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I started IV, I did it myself, started IV, and goes to Sodom Amitall within five minutes. 13:39 [SPEAKER_02]: She sits up, gives me a whole history, goes to the restroom, eat slunch, and never goes back in the cartitonia. 13:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So, true serum has many uses, but it's not actually true serum. 13:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It just loosens you up, and so it may make you say things that are true or may just making mixed up. 13:59 [SPEAKER_01]: life can get overwhelming and talking to someone can make all the difference. 14:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 14:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and as little as a couple of days. 14:18 [SPEAKER_01]: You can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection, and daily group sessions on a variety of topics, and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 14:39 [SPEAKER_01]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 14:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 14:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 15:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Start your journey today. 15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I have another question. 15:06 [SPEAKER_00]: This is also from a survivor at PO. 15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I was admitted to the hospital with anorexia. 15:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And now this was when she was in high school. 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I would be in maskels office at school all day. 15:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I started passing out in the evening from not eating. 15:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I had to promise my family I would eat. 15:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I am now obese. 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not an arrexic. 15:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Back then, I was very thin. 15:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I think nobody thought to feed me. 15:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Could maskel have tried to make me dependent on him, even for food. 15:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, nothing surprising about that. 15:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Why would he not have given all the other twisted, bizarre, cruel, criminal things that he did? 15:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Why not trying to use food? 15:51 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're going to use Jesus in God to control him, manipulate people, use them for sexual activities, people equals children, why would you not use food? 16:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Another question from another survivor is, Maskel measured our pupils after my friend and I took a hit of something called four-way sunshine acid. 16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Maskel asked me, what I was seeing, my friend was just crawling around the room. 16:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I told Maskel, I saw circles, triangles, squares, and I felt like I was falling from one to another. 16:31 [SPEAKER_01]: a dealer on campus. 16:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember Moscow giving me a glass of milk, and I said, look, you can see the little dark swimming in the milk. 16:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So basically, I don't know. 16:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, there is possible. 16:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And so this raises the whole question. 16:45 [SPEAKER_02]: What was he doing and why was he doing it? 16:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So one possible answer is he's just doing it for kicks. 16:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He's just one more weird thing he was doing. 16:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Another is he was seeing 17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the person would remember the abuse that happened when they're high on LSD, or it could be that, again, he's connected to something a little more organized and it's part of some kind of mine control program, which is where the codes come up. 17:14 [SPEAKER_02]: The measuring the pupils was probably just LSD. 17:17 [SPEAKER_02]: If it was LSD, it'd take an effect. 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: The next question actually goes back to something you said earlier, Dr. Ross. 17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I want our listeners to understand that we are reading these questions exactly the way they were sent to us. 17:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So if they sound a little convoluted or little confused, it's because the person asking it. 17:37 [SPEAKER_00]: is feeling that way. 17:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And this question is, I was given a numeric code. 17:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I was afraid this code would make me shoot someone. 17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Masks will have a lot of guns. 17:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Masks will have me watch films on an old movie reel. 17:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember hearing the projector machine. 17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I could not remember the films, but how does a numeric code work? 18:00 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just in one form like I was saying earlier, one form 18:07 [SPEAKER_02]: how likely is this to be a random coincidence that exactly what she's saying masco did is described exactly in CIA documents from tenish years earlier that somebody was programmed they were given numeric code to switch them into their most of not a identity and one of the people thought that on command she was killing somebody so it's exactly the same scenario so these things have happened 18:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, back to why was somebody who's that weird, that distorted, that sick, that organized a pedophile, not do stuff like that. 18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The next survivor's question starts out as his hypnosis started with a watch, then later no watch. 18:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I would just lay down and relax from my shoulders to my toes. 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The length time would follow why can't I remember. 18:57 [SPEAKER_02]: The watch was this sort of standard thing in hypnosis 50, 60s, et cetera, which kind of gone out of fashion now. 19:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's interesting because it fits that time period. 19:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, again, just a basic standard tip, no solicitor information that after somebody has been hypnotized a few times and they get the hang of it, either self hypnosis or being hypnotized by another person, it gets easier to do. 19:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So then you don't need to watch anymore. 19:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Why would you not remember would be, nobody remembers everything about everything in their lives? 19:29 [SPEAKER_02]: What did I have for lunch two days before my 11th birthday? 19:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I've got the faintest idea. 19:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So it could be normal for getting, or it could be hypnotic commands programming that you are instructed not to remember. 19:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And it could just be that your mind is protecting you from that information, because it's gonna be too upsetting 19:52 [SPEAKER_02]: why bother remembering now, and the answer to why bother remembering now is because you want to remember, but also maybe you don't, because why would you, but you do? 20:00 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the dilemma back and forth. 20:03 [SPEAKER_00]: The next question is, again, from the survivor, she said, she had a pediatrician in Baltimore. 20:10 [SPEAKER_00]: She was very young. 20:11 [SPEAKER_00]: She remembers going into a large room and her nose bleeding and her needing stitches. 20:18 [SPEAKER_00]: She remembers her mother being told that she shrubs something up her nose, but she knows it wasn't true. 20:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there something else that could have happened to her 20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: That problem with her nose, if this was when, of course, it sounds like before she was in high school, but a number of our survivors were abused by mascot in grade school because he was moved around the archdiocese often. 20:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the youngest one we know about was three. 20:50 [SPEAKER_00]: and it goes up from there to adults, but it's possible that this was somebody that was abused by him in her elementary school. 20:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there something that would have happened to her that could have caused her nose to be bleeding? 21:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's one might really can't answer. 21:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, it could just have been as spontaneous and mostly. 21:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And the doctor might have said, oh, she must have put something up her nose, just because doctor say stuff like that, and there could be nothing more to 21:16 [SPEAKER_02]: what else it? 21:17 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no reason to go, oh, no split equals sexual abuse or no split equals anything else. 21:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really have a good answer to that. 21:24 [SPEAKER_01]: The next question starts out as in my teens and twenties, I wore bracelet in case I would forget my name. 21:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It was engraved with my name in the inside of it. 21:36 [SPEAKER_01]: When I was given LSD and school, I would keep myself calm with remembering things that I 21:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had to build my own confidence. 21:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Why couldn't I remember my name? 21:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I don't know, but not being able to remember your name is a very well-documented described feature of what's called a fugue state. 22:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So fugue state is when you suddenly develop an easier for your past, which can be total 100% and these are like 80% and 90% easier. 22:11 [SPEAKER_02]: You're found wandering somewhere. 22:15 [SPEAKER_02]: and then at some point you pop out of it, which could be soon or after weeks or months, and you may pop out spontaneously, or because, like I was involved in a case where the person was on the radio, are on TV in one city in Canada because he didn't know who he was found and brought to the hospital and so on. 22:35 [SPEAKER_02]: and his wife and another city in Canada was watching the news program. 22:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's where he is called up. 22:43 [SPEAKER_02]: He came back, or she went to visit him, when he saw her, also, and he popped back to his normal self, but he didn't remember the period of the few, the period, which was several weeks long. 22:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a typical part of the socio-defew, typical symptoms. 23:05 [SPEAKER_02]: So people don't just go into these dissociative fuchs because everything is fine. 23:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So it could be because they're in combat. 23:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be tied into sexual abuse. 23:14 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be tied into math, math, school. 23:17 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't necessarily mean it was controlled or engineered by math school. 23:21 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a highly traumatized, dissociative person who's spontaneously going and out of these different states. 23:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I would say about that. 23:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And why couldn't you remember your name? 23:33 [SPEAKER_02]: That's just the way it goes with those states of mind. 23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so heartbreaking when you think about somebody having to wear a bracelet with their name on it. 23:41 [SPEAKER_00]: A intelligent person who's been taken advantage of, us to wear a bracelet to identify themselves is just so think about. 23:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, and there's a few cases that was on TV some years ago, where the woman had taken off several times, and she actually ended up tattooing her name in form number on her arm. 24:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So sad. 24:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the next question has to do with drugs again. 24:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I was given LSD and masculine. 24:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know if I'm saying that. 24:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right. 24:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Mescalin. 24:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's stripped me of all feeling. 24:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I was surely numb inside. 24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So I had feelings to kill myself if I told anybody what was happening. 24:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm 62. 24:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I've told this too many times. 24:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I no longer get waves. 24:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this common in MK Ultra victims? 24:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I can't exactly that because nobody's interviewed dozens and dozens of them culture or their mind control victims who've been given LSD and written a paper about it and here's what they found and here's what they saw, but in general for abuse victims to have waves of feeling like they want to kill themselves and then with age or with therapy, it just settles down and fades out and doesn't happen anymore, that's 25:01 [SPEAKER_01]: The next survivor's question specifically deals with the CIA's program, specifically for MK Holdtrow or in-case search, with the CIA choose to use girls in those programs, or do you feel that mask or could have been rogue? 25:17 [SPEAKER_01]: who just maybe he was someone who wanted to be in the CIA and a part of that program. 25:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Both are possible. 25:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So in the CIA documents, culture and related projects, it describes girls, but they're more like 19-year-old secretaries, not six-year-olds. 25:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's no documents describing sexual abuse or really complicated mind control experiments on young children. 25:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But GHester Brooks, who was at Colgate College in Upper State, New York, described in great detail. 25:47 [SPEAKER_02]: The earliest was in 1943, and the last published time was in early 1970s, and I have in my files, which I got from Colby College, correspondence back and forth between him and senior FBI people, correspondence back and forth over several decades between him and J. Edgar Huber, 26:12 [SPEAKER_02]: personal on army bases that senior military people are coming to go get college to attend conferences. 26:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And that leading hypnosis experts cleared a top secret under M. K. Ultra were connected to him interacting with him attending the same conferences. 26:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So Mr. Brooks had a project furnishes an upstate New York. 26:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So I know for a fact he was interested in 26:42 [SPEAKER_02]: on contract to the word apartment in the second world war because I have the contract itself. 26:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I have the detailed descriptions of that in his writings. 26:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think he was like just interested in Antonio, Funkas and children. 26:54 [SPEAKER_02]: He's obviously pursuing some kind of hypnosis, mentor, and candidate, brainwashing the gender with children. 27:02 [SPEAKER_02]: But we don't have any details about it at all. 27:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Then at conclusion is, yeah, these things are all realistically possible. 27:08 [SPEAKER_02]: that there could have been still classified CA programs on sexual abuse, programming of little girls. 27:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It's also totally possible he was just a rogue wannabe guy. 27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: The second part to their question, it's maybe the psychological type of question 27:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But it starts out as well. 27:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember what happened as I grew up more comfortable with myself, but I ever be able to get to a place where I don't feel like I was programmed. 27:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you were in fact programmed, why would you get want to get to a place where you feel like you were programmed if you were? 27:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, what the question really means is what I get to a place where I'm not like tormented by it or constantly. 27:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Preoccupied with it or it's really taking up a lot of time and energy. 27:52 [SPEAKER_02]: That's possible, but in mental health there's very 27:55 [SPEAKER_00]: That seems to be the question that comes up with the conversation that comes up very often because these women are in their sixties and they are desperate to feel normal and they don't. 28:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And the damage was done 50 years ago and they just, it's like they just are like thirsting for some kind of normalcy where well I ever get there. 28:25 [SPEAKER_02]: described to me by a therapist at a conference, was a person who started treatment for the idea at age 80 and got integrated at age 83. 28:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And what does that mean integrated all blended back into one person? 28:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're not hearing voices in your head, you're not having to do it's a missing time. 28:44 [SPEAKER_02]: You remember what you remember, you feel like it all happened to you. 28:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So just basically I'll blend it back into one person. 28:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to mention Dr. Ross before I asked the next question is there was a psychiatrist that the archdiocese evolved to more had a contract with and he traveled to different schools and he was authorized to administer certain tests. 29:07 [SPEAKER_00]: and to evaluate students. 29:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was very close friends with Joseph Maskel. 29:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you watch the keepers, you may have remembered that a lot of documents were dug up in the cemetery. 29:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but now we don't, we didn't get our hands on the document, so. 29:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But we found a TV station that actually had a video of the documents, a photographer worked with us and was able to enlarge and enhance and turn them into still photos and we found that they were personality tasks with a scale that would have been used. 29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: to screen possible candidates for susceptibility, whether or not they trusted people, and Maskel was not authorized to give these, but the doctor who was on loan to the school was. 29:58 [SPEAKER_00]: His name, he died last year's name was William Urban. 30:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And he certainly would have had access to those tests and we have heard from like hundreds of alumni who said they were given that test in a classroom in their freshman year. 30:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, depending on how they scored, they were called into his office, and it was given to him and given to them again, and we really feel urban and the it was called the, I'm just going to say it, the psychology associates, a number of those psychiatrists also abused younger roles, and we don't really understand what the connection was, whether there was a connection with the government, but those. 30:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Doctors did have access to tests that maskable would not have been permitted to administer. 30:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of that was used for him to screen his prey. 30:55 [SPEAKER_00]: We do know that's what would partly what was in the dig, because we took the pictures that we had, sent it to the American Psychology Association, and they identified the tests for us. 31:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And those were definitely personality tests. 31:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, published a book called Surviving Evil, which is a woman's story being a victim of CI Mind Control Experimentation at Vermont State Hospital, and she could compete with you guys in terms of how long she stayed with it, how many freedom of information out requests, all the documents she gathered. 31:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, in her medical record, is the name Robert Hyde, who was a top-secret cleared LSD contractor on her MK Ultra, and there's numerous other connections in MK Ultra from the doctors who were at the hospital. 31:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And this includes the CIA program, all fully documented, and the name of the guy and the name of the psychological test. 31:57 [SPEAKER_02]: who was a CIA officer, and these tests were widely administered at schools and other locations in Vermont and throughout the United States. 32:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's an absolutely a fact. 32:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, our most of those, you said it was in her medical records, but our most of those documents were they destroyed by the CIA when the program officially came to an end? 32:17 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the mythology. 32:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So you never know for what the real story is, but the mythology is that the head of the CIA in 1972 three ordered the destruction of all the MK Ultra documents. 32:28 [SPEAKER_02]: and somehow through bureaucratic error, seven boxes of documents survived, and were later by accident found in a storage warehouse, and those are all the MK-Octrad documents that we have. 32:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And are those declassified? 32:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they were declassified in the 70s when all these Senate hearings were going on. 32:50 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a dozen researchers from the remarkable followers who are doing the research for us, looking for connections. 32:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we do really well with crowdsourcing. 33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But I, so two avenues, I would go out. 33:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So Joyce Malekke was, who's in the capers was the, her relatives are, was murdered just a few days after sister Kathy, right? 33:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you remember the location that her body was dumped? 33:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it was on an army base. 33:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Ford made. 33:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd best to get that as a non-random dumping site. 33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: We have submitted FOIA requests five years ago to get her files and it's 4,000 pages. 33:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And Abby, who is my partner in crime, she did the paperwork. 33:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's still listed as awaiting an analyst. 33:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the FBI, right? 33:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 33:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's in the key for someone we like. 33:51 [SPEAKER_00]: The family has been told nothing. 33:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the autopsy and somebody was taken to the hospital on the army base at the same time, because of sister 34:04 [SPEAKER_00]: the Baltimore County Police Department. 34:06 [SPEAKER_00]: and the FBI had a joint commission, because somebody was telling the truth and they thought that the cases were connected. 34:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So our contacts in the police department for Baltimore County have been able to look at those files but they can't copy anything or take anything. 34:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And we have had our senators try the government's break in the law right now not giving us the files for us to sue them would be ridiculous because that would take longer in money 34:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And we are, we don't know what else to do. 34:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have an answer for you on that, except that nobody covers up. 34:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody covers up nothing, right? 34:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you make something up? 34:51 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 34:51 [SPEAKER_00]: What was your, like, we are determined to help that family? 34:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I just keep pounding on the same doors. 34:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I've been pounding on local politicians. 35:01 [SPEAKER_02]: People with influence far up the chain is getting the FBI federal government. 35:06 [SPEAKER_02]: People attorney general who. 35:08 [SPEAKER_02]: whoever you can go. 35:10 [SPEAKER_00]: The attorney general in Maryland is now conducting a criminal investigation as Pennsylvania did to see if there should be a grand jury convened. 35:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And they've been wonderful. 35:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I wonder if maybe that would be an avenue that we could pursue. 35:26 [SPEAKER_02]: See you guys got more expertise than I do on all this. 35:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a hard one, but I'm in this for the duration. 35:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not going anywhere. 35:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So this next question is, I was at Hopkins in 64. 35:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I was eight years old. 35:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember having a drug liquid pink. 35:46 [SPEAKER_01]: They gave me an EEG. 35:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I did not like the man giving it to me. 35:51 [SPEAKER_01]: He had long hair and was Spanish looking. 35:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Have any others complained of this procedure? 35:56 [SPEAKER_02]: First of all kinds of kids get EEGs just in normal neurology, because they might have seizures or something might be going on. 36:05 [SPEAKER_02]: something was going on, went to the family doctor, they said, oh, for better get in your all just than your all just as better do an EEG and the liquid was just to relax you or was part of the EEG procedure. 36:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So it could be totally normal. 36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, I've had many patients describe complex mind control programming on in labs and military 36:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know specifically how that would have happened? 36:37 [SPEAKER_01]: What would they be using the EEG for? 36:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Let EEG measures your brain waves. 36:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So in normal, just everyday medicine, you're trying to see if there's some abnormal brain waves that are causing the seizures. 36:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Or there's something specific wrong with your brain. 36:54 [SPEAKER_02]: In, 36:55 [SPEAKER_02]: This more mind-controlled programming kind of area. 36:57 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a guy who was funded by the CIA and various branches of the military. 37:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And he describes the masculine NLSD, both that we were talking about earlier. 37:10 [SPEAKER_02]: He would have a whole apport in the person's skull, poor either LSD or masculine into the person's brain, and measure the effects on their EEG and publish those papers and journals. 37:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's all just tracking how the brain reacts to whatever it is you're doing to the person. 37:27 [SPEAKER_01]: The next question is, I was given LSD. 37:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I was tripping all night long in my room at my house. 37:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Maskle was on the phone with me asking what I was experiencing. 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: The next day he took me into his office. 37:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw a note on his desk written to somebody saying he had a girl who was on LSD and he wanted to see what she would do. 37:49 [SPEAKER_02]: could he have been reporting back to somebody about us so it's the same matter possibly but by main point here so it's just it was an old on his desk he's writing to his some other priest down the road or something or it could be his reporting to somebody his part of an organized pedophile ring part of the military part of CIA so my main point is this is not just crazy ridiculous hysterical conspiracy theory by 38:19 [SPEAKER_02]: did happen, has happened is absolutely real. 38:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So I have copies of correspondence back and forth between different CIA officers talking about was called Operation Midnight Climax, which was mostly in San Francisco but a little bit in New York. 38:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And this guy George White, who is, 38:39 [SPEAKER_02]: basically a government officer in the Bureau of Narcotics, which is the precursor of the DEA. 38:45 [SPEAKER_02]: He, they built a safe room. 38:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I have the requisitions and everything for the safe room, the budget for the project. 38:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was a one-way mirror in there and they hired prostitutes who would go out, the bars pick up guys, bring them back, ghost them with LSD without their knowing, have sex with them with the CIA officers 39:09 [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely documented fact and that one documentary I watched some years ago they actually found the building that was used for the safe house and they actually address in the street and everything at San Francisco. 39:23 [SPEAKER_02]: But in this letter, the one CIA officer was saying to the other one that it's a pretty complicated thing trying to create these juggle hide personalities. 39:39 [SPEAKER_02]: create jekyll hide personality is which you can't do by picking guy up at a bar and discussing with LSD once. 39:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So clearly the jekyll hide personality is what have to be the prostitutes. 39:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Which would then mean that they were creating mentoring candidate prostitutes and testing them out in the field to see how they performed and they are dosing the guys with LSD just so they all confused mixed up and discredited 40:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And those are the possibilities that follow logically based on documentation. 40:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Because we know there was mentoring candidate experiments. 40:17 [SPEAKER_02]: We know the CIA was interested in that. 40:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, it's not crazy conspiracy theory at all. 40:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's perfectly possible that Moscow was reporting back to somebody and they were recruiting dissociated children for their own uses. 40:33 [SPEAKER_02]: But do I know for a fact? 40:34 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't. 40:35 [SPEAKER_00]: No, we understand that. 40:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the last question we have for you is actually about the drugs. 40:41 [SPEAKER_00]: What is the duration from ingestion of LSD to one set. 40:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And this came from a survivor who actually is a psychotherapist. 40:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So she's got 10,000 questions in here. 40:53 [SPEAKER_00]: How long do they affect last. 40:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Are there different effects for each individual? 40:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it a substance akin to ambient? 41:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what that is, and I'm in sleep medication. 41:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Call on my free prescribed sleep medication. 41:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Totally different class of drug from LSD. 41:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and what would be the most common mode of delivery at that time? 41:14 [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of LSD, pills, liquid, paper, what would have been used? 41:20 [SPEAKER_02]: probably liquid paper, just like was being used on the street, sugar cubes, liquid. 41:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So if somebody took it, how long would it take before it took a fact? 41:30 [SPEAKER_02]: The first question is, was it LSD that you actually got, which we don't know for sure, because there's many different hallucinations, but ballparkers typical thing for LSD is it's 20, 30 minutes, maybe a really into the trip by 40, 50 minutes, and it lasts six 41:50 [SPEAKER_02]: much out of it by 10 hours. 41:52 [SPEAKER_02]: That's like the typical time for it. 41:53 [SPEAKER_02]: It can vary from person to person, but it's never last, let's take a very weak dose. 41:57 [SPEAKER_02]: If you take a full street dose, you've never lasted just one hour. 42:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't last for three days. 42:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Keep out of you guys who've done an amazing job against a very big mountain of resistance. 42:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And none of it emotionally easy for you guys. 42:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So I greatly admire your sticking with it. 42:18 [SPEAKER_02]: How you've pieced it all 42:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully if you keep out at something will happen sometime, it's a little bit more definitive. 42:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I really believe that you're hearing with us today what you did is going to answer a lot of questions for people who were in this situation and maybe give them some closure or relief, although it was terrible and they're still suffering from it, but at least maybe they understand it better. 42:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The final question I have for you, Dr. Ross, from everything that I've heard, you talk about when it comes to the MK Ultra program and the CIA. 43:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that you mentioned to us earlier today that you finished watching the keepers, from the information that you gathered from there, as well as the information about Father Mass School and His involvement with Johns Hopkins and the abuse that he was putting on 43:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Gemma and I are trying to come up with an answer on could mascot has been a part of this program. 43:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Could the work he was doing have been a benefit of this program? 43:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, there's a few things that don't exactly fall in line with just a plane and I hate saying a plane, pedophile ring. 43:36 [SPEAKER_01]: In your opinion, after watching the keepers, 43:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that this could be a possibility could he have been involved with the CIA program? 43:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely. 43:45 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that the CIA and FBI have cult watch and a cult watch list. 43:50 [SPEAKER_02]: They keep track of all kinds of potential terrorists and potential. 43:55 [SPEAKER_02]: this that and the other people of all different races and all different ideologies. 43:59 [SPEAKER_02]: So we know that they monitor all the time. 44:01 [SPEAKER_02]: We know there was an operation called Quintel Pro, which was infiltrating student union organizations back in the 60s. 44:09 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that from documents that they had a large mail intercept program where they're intercepting people's mail opening it, reading it, resealing it, sending it on. 44:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so there's tons of tons of surveillance. 44:24 [SPEAKER_02]: We know that for a fact is the possibilities would be, they had nothing to do with anything except mask on a few other guys. 44:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Another would be was actually organized by some outside entity. 44:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Or then between that the outside entity do what was going on. 44:43 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't running at. 44:44 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't paying for it. 44:45 [SPEAKER_02]: But they were just observing it, watching, getting them to court back for their interests. 44:51 [SPEAKER_02]: All those are realistic possibilities. 44:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we feel like sister Kathy knew too much and she was collateral damage. 44:57 [SPEAKER_00]: They couldn't afford to have her. 45:00 [SPEAKER_02]: around because she was the one that was willing to do something about what was happening and unfortunately that put her in jeopardy so another possibility is that Joyce was basically a misdirection that she was killed to make it look like there's either a serial killer or a bunch of random killings going on and just like Joyce Kathy was one two that's another possibility. 45:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 45:27 [SPEAKER_00]: We so appreciate your time and that you sat through seven hours of what I'm even in your field. 45:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it's not easy to see that, but thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. 45:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, you're most welcome. 45:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 45:50 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching
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