0:08 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching. 0:26 [SPEAKER_03]: There were other people because he had a position of faith of spiritual leader, confident for a lot of people within a confessional that were doing things that were wildly against their being, their ideas, but he was encouraging. 0:42 [SPEAKER_03]: He was paying it with OK. 0:44 [SPEAKER_03]: He gave them permission. 0:47 [SPEAKER_03]: One somebody goes, 0:48 [SPEAKER_03]: be on that limit. 0:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Once they've done and done whatever that fantasy is that they've confessed within a confessional. 0:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you feel that is a kind of mentoring a release of 1:01 [SPEAKER_03]: something within an individual that allows them to think that this behavior is okay and it may continue. 1:07 [SPEAKER_04]: I have two thoughts because it's kind of complicated question. 1:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying that a young priest who just came out of seminary and if the priest says, this is okay. 1:20 [SPEAKER_04]: is he potentially very much manipulated by that elder priest? 1:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Not just pleased. 1:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know, I've already different people for what I'm saying is no matter where he connected with them. 1:32 [SPEAKER_03]: If he is bringing them, which they're considered, and I'm going to say, from what I remember, this was a safe place. 1:40 [SPEAKER_03]: This was better than being out on a street. 1:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So, what he brings someone to a place that is safe, 1:47 [SPEAKER_03]: is protected by him is affirmed by him if someone does something that is against their particular morals. 1:57 [SPEAKER_03]: That is what they may have even gone into a confessional to say that they struggle with. 2:02 [SPEAKER_03]: They scared to see or nothing to act them out is different. 2:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 2:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So if someone was in the room, acting out of fantasy. 2:10 [SPEAKER_03]: that he is now said this is the way that you're working. 2:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I now have one man in the room doing that and this is how you will get beyond it. 2:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Once they act it out, once they're given permission by the person that they go to for the final blessing, have you open the door for them to start doing more of that or is that possibly just the only time they would do it? 2:35 [SPEAKER_04]: What happens within the mind of the person who has now violated their own moral code? 2:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a person who's never done this, you've got a person with religious authority who says, this is okay. 2:49 [SPEAKER_04]: This is how we do it and now and because a person is sexually has been abstinence or whatever and they've a lot of strong sexual tension built up and now they act something out now they've done it. 3:02 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's possible that they get trapped in their own psychology at that point where now I've crossed the line now I've done something really wrong and maybe there's no turning back. 3:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Or maybe the way to deal with my guilt is to do it again and justify it again, I think people can get stuck in a cycle as they try to cope with their guilt where they can get into a repetition compulsion to do it again to overcome their guilt in a kind of backwards way so I'll justify it again because I'll take what he said and I'll tell myself that again. 3:40 [SPEAKER_04]: And now I've made it okay again, but it's really not okay, but maybe it is. 3:46 [SPEAKER_04]: And I'll do it again to prove to myself that it is there's some kind of twisted Compulsive behavior that people can sometimes get into when they've done something wrong. 3:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Where instead of sitting with the guilt, they feel compelled to do it again to try to override the guilt if that makes any sense. 4:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I personally think that that answer that for me, 100% it's there is a variety of different reactions someone would have if they were given permission to do their wall to stand to see and if they do that fantasy and they still feel guilty but who they would go to in order to be relieved of the guilt is the person who told them it was okay to do it I would imagine then they are dealing with just their God and that would either be I will never do that again. 4:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Or I need to do it again. 4:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Or I like it. 4:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Or he has it now on a black rock and now he knows the very last point that you raised. 4:47 [SPEAKER_04]: And then thinking about how calculated. 4:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And the manipulative, the leaders of this ring. 4:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe you didn't see it. 4:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it was when you left the room where one of these guys in authority said, hey, now you're with us. 5:02 [SPEAKER_04]: You try to get out and we're gonna fix it. 5:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I always felt there was a black book, Dr. Lactor. 5:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know why I believe I must have seen one, but I have always felt from the very beginning that he had a black book and anyone who did anything in that room or wherever he took any of us girls 5:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And that became, I think that, I think he was, I always said he was a genius, my therapist says, no, he was a criminal genius. 5:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a kind of, he has a master criminal genius, but I, I, I believe that he knew very well what he was doing and he used everything that he did. 5:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Did he have any kind of hidden camera clip going on? 5:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't believe there was any of that. 5:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. 5:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I personally was not aware of it as of nail to this point. 5:54 [SPEAKER_04]: That's what they would do now. 5:55 [SPEAKER_04]: When everything you just described were he encourages and manipulates and 6:00 [SPEAKER_04]: uses sexual seduction to to lower more people into co perpetrating now they would have a hidden camera going to be able to blackmail that person and be able to I don't think that this guy was necessarily very smart you might have been who knows, but I think that when if giving yourself over to you full made it okay when you bought when you embrace. 6:26 [SPEAKER_04]: The exploitation of others new cross line that you're talking about these new guys crossing, but when you cross the later line where you're like everything I do is okay with me and I'm very happy doing this to the I don't care about anybody's feelings but my own fires what once you move into that kind of mindset. 6:49 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it takes a lot of intelligence to do the kinds of evil that he did. 6:54 [SPEAKER_04]: I think that it's people like you and me change Emma. 6:58 [SPEAKER_04]: We have trouble understanding how they think we can't really put ourselves in their shoes. 7:04 [SPEAKER_04]: That's just too hard to imagine it, but these are not brilliant moves. 7:09 [SPEAKER_04]: This isn't gastrophysics. 7:11 [SPEAKER_04]: This isn't organic chemistry. 7:13 [SPEAKER_04]: This isn't calculus. 7:15 [SPEAKER_04]: This is pretty simple. 7:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Had a terrorized somebody threatened somebody. 7:19 [SPEAKER_04]: This is just evil. 7:20 [SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't give them too much mental credit. 7:23 [SPEAKER_04]: You're probably a lot smarter, and it doesn't even have what you are as you're good. 7:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Good at the only thing that really matters. 7:30 [SPEAKER_04]: This guy is dead, and I believe he is stuck in having to feel everything he did to all of his victims now when you get really old and you're getting ready to die, you're going to look back and you're going to say, I was good. 7:45 [SPEAKER_04]: That's all that matters. 7:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I've ever discussed this with Gene and I don't know how significant it is, but I have talked to women who are survivors of Masco at Kio who shared with me that Polaroid camera was used because of course the kinds of pictures he was taking. 8:02 [SPEAKER_02]: of them would never have been permitted to be developed in a camera shop. 8:07 [SPEAKER_02]: The girls who were in the polaroids were drugged. 8:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, he used those pictures. 8:14 [SPEAKER_02]: He took them out of a file with the girls name on it and showed them the pictures as an emotional kind of blackmail. 8:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, they would have had no idea what he was having them do. 8:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I've also talked to 8:28 [SPEAKER_02]: survivors of Moscow from a daycare center in another parish where three and four year olds were blindfolded and he made videos of those children and they told me they had no idea what they were doing, none of it made sense and he was forcing them to position themselves into ways with each other. 8:52 [SPEAKER_02]: and using like a super eight movie camera that a lot of families had to make movies of them. 8:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've often wondered if that might have been some of the trophies that he had buried in the Holy Cross cemetery. 9:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess we'll never know, but Gene, yeah, he did use photography. 9:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I had pictures taken of me. 9:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was with a co-dact incident film thing. 9:15 [SPEAKER_03]: When I started to remember Magnus, the first thing I said to the father orc was when he told me, 9:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Magnus had been dead in his apartment for three days before he was found first thing I asked him because I'd already remember this were their pictures there and I wanted so badly being so embarrassment-mediated what they were exactly like what was found the box that was found or spoken of from the burial. 9:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things that I felt was I was not surprised that one box went missing because I owned the Archdiocese and the lawyers about being having pictures taken with our shirts open. 9:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And I wondered, is one of those pictures mine? 10:00 [SPEAKER_03]: What was one of those pictures mine? 10:03 [SPEAKER_03]: That would have validated. 10:05 [SPEAKER_03]: what I have been telling them and instead it went missing. 10:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I do know of the pictures that we're taking. 10:12 [SPEAKER_03]: I do know it was early one for me. 10:13 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like after the confessional when magnets it was very much involved still with at all. 10:19 [SPEAKER_03]: More so than anything I remember when magical started to really get more involved. 10:24 [SPEAKER_03]: But I, yeah, and I suspect that I could have very well been a picture in that box. 10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone, or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 10:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the first therapist 10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 11:11 [SPEAKER_01]: with over 2,000,000 users and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up and get 10% off your first month. 11:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Start your journey today. 11:40 [SPEAKER_01]: ask you for your opinion. 11:42 [SPEAKER_01]: When Jean was talking about how angry he became after Kathy mentioned that she knew. 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: In your mind, could an abuser with everything that you know about him from 11:54 [SPEAKER_04]: this scenario and from what you've seen in the keepers, is it possible that an abuse arc was used to abusing would resort to something like murder or could there anger build up to that of course could it just sure if you think about everything that he did to terrorize and silence and them good genes memory. 12:16 [SPEAKER_04]: of being taken to the bottom and the whole car owner saying there were maggots, right? 12:22 [SPEAKER_04]: So there's not supposed to be maggots in the winter, but James sees them and then the car owner finds them for God's sake. 12:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to back up just a little bit earlier we were talking about dissociative. 12:36 [SPEAKER_01]: When you watch the keepers, you saw the mid-90s trial with the doro case and the words were 12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: was constantly being brought up during that period of time, is this a diagnosis is repressed memory and official diagnosis? 12:53 [SPEAKER_04]: As a true psychological phenomenon that people and when undergoing horrible trauma would, I would say dissociate it, we'd probably be a more descriptive word than repress, 13:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. 13:09 [SPEAKER_04]: How else is a kid supposed to get through the day? 13:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. 13:13 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, we all experienced it in one way or the other. 13:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Whenever something horrible happens, when my father died all of a sudden, I was like 37 years old or something, he had a cardiologist, but he was pretty pretty good shape. 13:28 [SPEAKER_04]: We had no idea. 13:29 [SPEAKER_04]: He was just going to die and he just died and I felt like somebody 13:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I remember trying to dissociate. 13:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't too successful because I didn't have to learn how to do that as a young child, but I deliberately tried to shift my mind to other thoughts because I couldn't stand being punched in the chest over and over one second after the next. 13:54 [SPEAKER_04]: So I busyed my mind with something else. 13:57 [SPEAKER_04]: That's like a very easy to understand, maybe first step to the process. 14:01 [SPEAKER_04]: You busy your mind with something else. 14:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I've had little kids tell me, I push pushed it down. 14:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Like this little girl, I said, okay, he did this to you right when school ended, but you didn't tell anybody until you went back to school in September. 14:15 [SPEAKER_04]: What did you do with this? 14:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Over the summer, what did you do? 14:18 [SPEAKER_04]: She goes, I pushed it down in my mind. 14:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Anybody who wants to say there's no such thing 14:23 [SPEAKER_04]: as repressing, suppressing, dissociating, whatever verb you want to use, a horrible memory, it's given me a break. 14:31 [SPEAKER_04]: What is your agenda? 14:32 [SPEAKER_04]: It's how I feel, what I want to say to that person. 14:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Why would you argue that? 14:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Aren't you a human haven't you lived on this earth? 14:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Haven't you ever had anything happen that you couldn't stand thinking about and you tried to push it out of your mind? 14:44 [SPEAKER_04]: And then later, recovering the memory, especially when it's something you just really hurt you a lot, 14:50 [SPEAKER_04]: It's always back there. 14:51 [SPEAKER_04]: I always think of it as scratching at the back door. 14:53 [SPEAKER_04]: I like jeans, a little metaphor of the garbage pen Hill holding the lid down, but there's a giant pile of garbage in there. 15:01 [SPEAKER_04]: It exists and it's bubbling up started to ferment. 15:06 [SPEAKER_04]: It's pushing up and it's harder and harder to push it down and maybe you're holding out and strong enough to move it over a little bit and let a little bit out, but then it hurts like help. 15:17 [SPEAKER_04]: or it's humiliating or it makes you hate yourself or in a jeans case makes you believe that you're 15:22 [SPEAKER_04]: sexually wrong person for the sexual wrongs that were done to you. 15:26 [SPEAKER_04]: This can't stand what they made her believe. 15:29 [SPEAKER_04]: So yes, the memories come back. 15:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that a recovered memory? 15:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a recovery memory. 15:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Is that a memory that's now being integrated? 15:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it's no longer dissociate. 15:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, call it whatever you want. 15:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to mock the term recovered memory and not allow the problems? 15:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Seriously, very term we have to use. 15:44 [SPEAKER_04]: That's okay. 15:45 [SPEAKER_04]: I got 20 other words I can use to describe it. 15:48 [SPEAKER_01]: When someone is suffering from repression memory, what would be the official diagnosis? 15:55 [SPEAKER_04]: The sociative amnesia or dissociative identity disorder or PTSD even includes a whole cluster of what can be thought of as dissociative responses. 16:08 [SPEAKER_04]: So with PTSD, you've got intrusion responses and the avoidance responses, the intrusion or when the garbage pale lid moves over and it popped out. 16:20 [SPEAKER_04]: And the avoidance responses are when you're holding the lid down and now you're numb and kick down and don't experience emotions and all of those kinds of things or can't stand to think about what happened and all of its association like the word. 16:38 [SPEAKER_04]: dissociation better than repress, but there may be a day where the Freudian terms repression and suppression are replaced with different understanding of the sociating and talking about the sociative responses. 16:51 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that I would say to that is as I worked through all this up to now, it was like boxes. 16:59 [SPEAKER_03]: I would get to a certain point where I realized that that part went in a box. 17:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I dissociated from that. 17:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I do that more than reprances all together, really truly work that I have experienced in the inner findings. 17:13 [SPEAKER_03]: It really is, because if it's been put in different, they weren't even aware of each other. 17:18 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like it's all just pushing down when I think about the trash can, it's as if 17:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I became so horrendous to myself that it was as if I ripped my warm-off and threw it in a trash can. 17:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that was my leaving net school. 17:39 [SPEAKER_03]: That was the severing of a part of me. 17:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And so as I started to find different things and cartoons. 17:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I did find that I had to in some way open up the trash can and bring that or amount as I talk about the maggots and try to bring it back to life in order to reconnect it to myself in order to, and it was a long pain for process and I'd say to all those other survivors out there, 18:12 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, in the long run, worth it. 18:15 [SPEAKER_03]: In the midst of it, it was torturous, but not as torturous as what had it been done to me. 18:21 [SPEAKER_03]: I continue to do it, but I do feel it, but you're saying, I liked it, did you know, simply refer, then repressed, sometimes repressed, just to have it acclaimed that. 18:31 [SPEAKER_03]: But repressing it seems that if I put, push it all down in the same place, they really did seem to be segmented and more so. 18:42 [SPEAKER_04]: The pression suggests more of an active effort with some volition and the association can happen automatically in the moment that as soon as the door clicked. 18:57 [SPEAKER_04]: it was wrong. 18:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And that can be also to hit not a part of it. 19:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't mean interrupt, but there's a not a part worked with that dissociative also the drug. 19:07 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a number of things he was doing technically that was feeding more into that dissociating. 19:14 [SPEAKER_04]: Repression suggests some 19:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And that it begins as a contest act if this is unacceptable and I push it down, but no, it can be actually registered separately. 19:26 [SPEAKER_04]: Initially, I think we're moving more and more toward talking about dissociative processes and less about repression and suppression. 19:35 [SPEAKER_04]: And the bad guys are making fun of repressed memory, phrases, repressed memories. 19:41 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's talk, let's do something else. 19:42 [SPEAKER_04]: They make fun of dissociations. 19:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, they're going to affect everything. 19:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Our descriptions always went out because they make so much sense. 19:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Lactor, when you watched the keepers, you saw during the 90s trial with the dough row case. 19:57 [SPEAKER_01]: They were talking about, at least the reference memory. 20:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Because we're exactly false memory. 20:04 [SPEAKER_01]: What was your impression when you saw that? 20:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And can you explain to me what is false memory syndrome? 20:10 [SPEAKER_04]: No, such thing. 20:11 [SPEAKER_04]: It's an invented syndrome by the false memory syndrome foundation. 20:15 [SPEAKER_04]: They created the term they tried to make it sound like an official syndrome. 20:21 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a syndrome. 20:22 [SPEAKER_04]: The syndrome is a genuine condition. 20:25 [SPEAKER_04]: like a set of medical symptoms or a set of psychological symptoms. 20:30 [SPEAKER_04]: What they were claiming it was is when somebody believes something that is not true as a result of influence usually by a therapist or by something in a person read or by other patients or some kind of outside source of influence and now the person has a memory 20:50 [SPEAKER_04]: of abuse that is not true. 20:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So this term isn't accepted. 20:55 [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably harder. 20:57 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a syndrome. 20:59 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a political maneuver. 21:02 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not real. 21:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying that it never happens that a person thinks some abuse happened to them that didn't happen in rare instances that does happen in rare instances, but the agenda of the false memory syndrome foundation was to discredit recovered memories across the board to discredit dissociative identity disorder. 21:25 [SPEAKER_04]: to discredit ever repressing when he memory, to discredit ritual abuse. 21:31 [SPEAKER_04]: They loved to go that one. 21:33 [SPEAKER_04]: I think discredit people like me. 21:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I think they're newsletter and I'm so proud. 21:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Really, you know, it's a little boy. 21:40 [SPEAKER_04]: I finally made the big times. 21:42 [SPEAKER_04]: So when people say, how do we know that you're clean? 21:45 [SPEAKER_04]: How do we know that you're not a dirty therapist? 21:47 [SPEAKER_04]: You're not in abuse or just trying to manipulate us and get us into your office so you can mind control. 21:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Check out my enemies and the great about it and call me again. 21:56 [SPEAKER_04]: I have the right enemies, right. 21:58 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so proud of that. 22:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Can we sell tickets to a one on one conversation with you and Paul McCue. 22:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, I'd have to really care for that. 22:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm betting on your sweetie. 22:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I mean, it's kind of ask. 22:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Tell, right? 22:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Think about. 22:13 [SPEAKER_04]: how carefully he engineered and planned everything he did. 22:18 [SPEAKER_04]: So, McCue would do that. 22:20 [SPEAKER_04]: So, I'd have to be ready for every single maneuver. 22:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I wish I could have done that for Jean when she was 16 years old. 22:28 [SPEAKER_04]: If Jean knew what he was going to do, and how he was going to try to manipulate her mind, 22:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Somebody would have prepared her for evil, what evil looks like and how it acts and how it tries to make you believe about it. 22:40 [SPEAKER_04]: And so it could have helped her some. 22:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately, it could have helped her 100% because he still would have had a lock in that room. 22:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Somebody had to get her the hell out of there. 22:48 [SPEAKER_04]: But Kathy says it's fine. 22:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's right. 22:51 [SPEAKER_04]: So I said something about her face and like even in her letter. 22:57 [SPEAKER_04]: This is the sweetest, most real person. 23:01 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just a saddest, saddest thing. 23:04 [SPEAKER_04]: She's just a sweetheart. 23:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to say this too because I feel like this I had to come to terms with. 23:10 [SPEAKER_03]: I was very angry with her when I first started remembering 23:14 [SPEAKER_03]: coming from the teenager and others may feel this others who were in the same situation and I have to believe I wasn't alone. 23:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel that she outed me that here I had been able to keep this all contained for end and the next thing I know he is furious with me because someone had said 23:42 [SPEAKER_03]: If I had never had not at my head to her, I wouldn't have been in its worst situation. 23:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 23:47 [SPEAKER_03]: So understanding that and saying that out loud to others, that part of... 23:54 [SPEAKER_03]: the problem. 23:55 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like we believe that's real feeling. 23:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not. 24:00 [SPEAKER_03]: It is as we knew at the age of the 16 or 15 because we thought I thought she would save me from this. 24:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And then she's gone and just at another school. 24:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And now I'm left with this man who now is enraged. 24:17 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to say that what I had to do through the years is come to realize that she was an innocent author, that she was very naive, that she had no idea what she was up against, and that none of us did. 24:34 [SPEAKER_03]: and they still want to act as if it was simple and it was nothing. 24:38 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a, it was like a monothea group. 24:42 [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay. 24:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And she had no idea. 24:44 [SPEAKER_03]: So she was another innocent. 24:47 [SPEAKER_03]: She was just as naive. 24:49 [SPEAKER_03]: She thought she could say something and it would stop. 24:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And instead, I think that she found out it was still going one and I think she was ready to do more. 24:59 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was not going to happen, but I do want to say that so others can hear, I was furious when I connected with that teenager, I was so angry and it also became like, well, that he fed on that I then caused her death because I wasn't aware of what that anger was, but he was. 25:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that there was so many different mechanisms here that he was plugging into. 25:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was like that he had that I think of the guy behind the curtain and was her vase. 25:32 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not even aware of how much he knew that would be a trigger for me. 25:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And then in the next thing you know, it was being used to make me even feel more guilty about her death. 25:43 [SPEAKER_04]: I want to paraphrase just in case, you know, just to highlight what he said and make sure that he understands. 25:49 [SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying that, of course, you feel angry because her actions and your survival psychological integrity, everything, you're well-being so badly. 26:00 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, in a much deeper state of terror and 26:02 [SPEAKER_04]: he knew that you were married her and exploited that to make you feel even more responsible for her death, which is just so evil. 26:14 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just so, of course, it ought to be angry because you're just trying to survive another day to be angry at anything that threatens that and it's just an emotional reaction, right? 26:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was going to be over and instead he's telling me someone told him, 26:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I only remember what I remember, but what the memory the work is going into deeper levels of the memory. 26:39 [SPEAKER_03]: So I get to, when I'm ready, feel what it feels like to be in that room, being told that and feel and start to deal with. 26:48 [SPEAKER_03]: because I can't even believe that I would be angry at her, but I was so angry. 26:53 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like she had deceived me. 26:56 [SPEAKER_03]: She had done something to make it seem more instead of stopping it. 27:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're still left in your own mind and you're, I thought it was going to be over. 27:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, I don't even understand what that all means other than he was very clear. 27:12 [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't just going to be over. 27:14 [SPEAKER_03]: It was going to get worse. 27:15 [SPEAKER_03]: survivors who are listening, especially of this particular type of abuse, there is a lot of emotions that we were going through that were just normal 1516 year old. 27:28 [SPEAKER_03]: think that we need to keep saying that people so they understand that we had our normal emotions going when we lost. 27:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 27:37 [SPEAKER_03]: She was my favorite in a very short span of time and I had felt I was keeping it all under control and keeping it at a certain pace and when I was addressed by her 27:53 [SPEAKER_03]: for her to ten. 27:55 [SPEAKER_03]: She was not that she was just gone. 27:59 [SPEAKER_03]: But what she also did, Dr. Lachter, is for those who may feel they're in a position of being able to speak up for someone, she planted seed within me. 28:10 [SPEAKER_03]: The seed was something's not right with this. 28:15 [SPEAKER_03]: because she cared enough to address me. 28:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So that seed, I really would never have called it abuse. 28:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I never would have said, because I thought I deserved it. 28:26 [SPEAKER_03]: This was just behavior that I deserved. 28:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, the seed, I'm going to can whisk enough, ask, and to be there for somebody is real quick, cook me. 28:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So the seed within me of her caring enough to ask me how was I? 28:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it was more than anything I could ever have won it more from her. 28:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I have found from people whether they know me didn't know me or they're just sharing through the work that I do. 28:58 [SPEAKER_03]: That people who have been severely abused tend to have a sixth sense. 29:04 [SPEAKER_03]: So I've been wished into another dimension of themselves with a spiritual depth. 29:09 [SPEAKER_03]: There were more of a sense of a high sensitivity, painful to certain degree if you don't know that it's almost like another, it's another coping of sorts, but it's like this high level of sensitivity. 29:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And so for me, I feel that as I've gotten healthier as I've gotten more integrated, 29:31 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm starting to see that helps the balanced healthy abliction that relative fears or the other things that remind me of that time. 29:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm starting to embrace this intuition, this other part more wholeheartedly as 29:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe the gift that has you see this in the work you do or or the people that you have worked with I definitely think survivors have a depth people who have not been exposed to these horrors don't have they understand pain they can tolerate other people's pain. 30:07 [SPEAKER_04]: They can hear horrible things that other people don't want to hear. 30:11 [SPEAKER_04]: They don't hit people with all these possibilities. 30:16 [SPEAKER_04]: You for Muslims patronizing little happy remarks. 30:20 [SPEAKER_04]: They can tune in. 30:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Other people can survive or be to survive or they can very quickly know somebody. 30:27 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have to be asked with here somebody. 30:29 [SPEAKER_04]: I can ask me how I am. 30:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I can answer. 30:32 [SPEAKER_04]: The question honestly instead of saying fine, so there's definitely a tremendous depth of understanding of everything love and evil that I feel. 30:45 [SPEAKER_04]: survivors have and a greater sensitivity to everything aware awareness of what's happening around the awareness of bad things that are happening around the awareness of people who are hurting around them definitely deeply intuitive sensitive but I think also often a little beyond that or a lot beyond that. 31:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So if I was also often have experiences of spiritual good that are mobile to other people, in the middle of horrible abuse, having had a spiritual experience, that gave them hope and love and protection in the middle of all of this. 31:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I believe those experiences are real. 31:25 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think they're just imagined, but I don't think they're psychological dispensers. 31:30 [SPEAKER_04]: I think they actually 31:31 [SPEAKER_04]: have been I think there's something of a near-death experience. 31:36 [SPEAKER_04]: There's also very often profound experiences of love. 31:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you definitely Dr. Lyctor for joining us. 31:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It was great having you as well as Jean here to discuss all of the Swiss with us. 31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I would like our listeners to go visit a coloring book that you have. 31:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe you. 31:55 [SPEAKER_01]: You've called it a coloring book of healing images, color to heal.com. 32:00 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a beautiful book. 32:01 [SPEAKER_04]: It's very insolving. 32:03 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not psychopathal. 32:04 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not technical language. 32:07 [SPEAKER_04]: It's very encouraging and almost poetic. 32:10 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's mostly pictures to color, even though it's got lots of little words that are supposed to support. 32:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And also lots of ideas for tools to serve, tools to ground. 32:23 [SPEAKER_04]: and for increasing self-compassion and all that kind of thing, it took me 10 years to get every word just right and to work with my artists to get the images to convey healing things. 32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you again, Dr. Lactre. 33:11 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