0:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Looking for a game that's fun, relaxing, and gives classic solitaire a fresh twist, solitaire clash, spelled CLASH, brings skill, speed, and strategy together in a way that makes every round feel rewarding. 0:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just solitaire as you know it, it's solitaire elevated, with competitive modes and even the chance to win real cash. 0:19 [SPEAKER_00]: In the middle of a busy day, it's more important than ever to carve out a moment for yourself, whether it's during a commute, while waiting for a ride or taking a quick pause to breathe. 0:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Solitaire Clash offers a simple satisfying escape. 0:32 [SPEAKER_00]: A couple fast rounds can calm your mind to challenge your focus and give you that little boost you didn't realize you needed. 0:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It's perfect for those in-between moments. 0:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Familiar enough to jump right in, but dynamic enough to keep things interesting. 0:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Each match is quick. 0:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Kill Driven, and packed with that just one more game feeling. 0:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So, if it's been a while, take a moment to open Solitaire Clash. 0:54 [SPEAKER_00]: CL-ASH, play a few rounds, unwind, and enjoy the fun. 0:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe even win a little while you're at it. 1:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Alright guys, welcome back with foul play. 1:14 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm joined again today with Gemma. 1:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Gemma, today we are recording our 88th episode. 1:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Can you believe that 88th? 1:24 [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing. 1:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we have a lot to talk about, evidently. 1:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, and we still get more information. 1:30 [SPEAKER_01]: We could probably do 88 more. 1:32 [SPEAKER_04]: I know, I'm always amazed when people say, well, there's nothing else to talk about. 1:37 [SPEAKER_04]: And here we are, number 88. 1:39 [SPEAKER_04]: But Jim, we have some special guest joining us today. 1:42 [SPEAKER_04]: And I would like you to introduce them for us. 1:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 1:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey everybody, I have the honor today. 1:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be in with three of my favorite people. 1:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sucking up. 1:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, a little bit because we really want them to be on the show. 1:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But besides Shane, today our guests are Kim and Mary Beth. 2:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to ask Kim first to tell us a little bit about herself. 2:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Anything you want us to know about yourself, Kim? 2:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Hi there. 2:14 [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Kim. 2:15 [SPEAKER_02]: and I am a victim of clergy abuse, which happened about the ages of nine and ten, and I am now 63. 2:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Also a survivor of Joseph Maskel abuse by him, and that's about it for now. 2:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Mary Beth, take it. 2:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my name is Mary Beth and I will tell you that I am a daughter of a survivor of clergy abuse, also Joseph maskell. 2:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I am also a paralegal for a law firm in Baltimore that is very, very, very involved in. 3:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Advocating, representing, assisting, whatever I possibly can do in the firm as well as the firm itself with survivors of clergy abuse and sexual assault as a minor in general, I've lived in Baltimore my entire life, I have never been probably more than 10 miles out of the West Baltimore region. 3:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm okay with that and I'm glad to be a part of this tonight and I'm honored that you asked me to join. 3:32 [SPEAKER_04]: One of our main topics today that we're going to explore is the attorney general report that was released in Maryland. 3:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Could you go into that for me? 3:44 [SPEAKER_01]: sure well sure like this is not a coincidence, but shortly after the capers was released and the attorney general's report from Pennsylvania by Josh Shapiro was released the attorney general in Maryland announced that they would be doing an investigation into clergy abuse in the archdiocese of Baltimore. 4:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So for all the newer two or three wristbands, or here's Evan Pennsylvania, we owe that to those two 4:19 [SPEAKER_01]: entities for pushing this along. 4:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So in September of 2018, the Attorney General announced that anybody who had been abused by clergy actually in Maryland, even though I found out Maryland is not just the archdiocese of Baltimore, asked people to come forward and report their abuse. 4:46 [SPEAKER_01]: and continuing for a million years, it felt like folks went forward and I had the opportunity to connect with the Attorney General's criminal investigator, Richard Wolfe, who is still in that position. 5:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope if you are a survivor of abuse in Maryland, don't let our last program 5:06 [SPEAKER_01]: scare you away. 5:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You still can't report this to the Attorney General. 5:11 [SPEAKER_01]: They are now doing a report on the Archdiocese of Washington, which is the Western and South Western Cart of Maryland and Washington, D.C. and the Archdiocese of Wilmington, which is the Eastern 5:33 [SPEAKER_01]: at the same time. 5:35 [SPEAKER_01]: What I did was there were so many people that came to me and said, I heard about this, what do I do? 5:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I gave them the contact information for Richard Wolff. 5:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them asked me to be one of the phone with them or to introduce them to him by email, which is fine. 5:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can still do that for any of you who are listening. 5:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he would take it from there. 6:01 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people came forward. 6:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Hundreds of people came forward. 6:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Thousands of people came forward. 6:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And then for the next four years, we thought it would never end. 6:11 [SPEAKER_01]: The attorney general took those reports. 6:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And we started bugging you in. 6:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what you do in, why aren't you finishing? 6:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Richard kept saying it's going to happen. 6:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to happen. 6:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But it did take four years. 6:24 [SPEAKER_01]: In November of 2022, 6:27 [SPEAKER_01]: We heard that the investigation was over, but not over. 6:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That people could still report and he was encouraging them to report, but they were going to begin to put this compilation of abuse and abusers together. 6:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So in the fall of last year, and I want to thank Mary Beth and her team for facilitating my travel to anapolis because you guys know I don't drive 6:57 [SPEAKER_01]: to make sure that I was able to testify also in favor of the Child Victims Act. 7:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So the two things happening at one time, the investigation was coming out, the report, and the Child Victims Act was going to be voted on. 7:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So in April, the report came out. 7:18 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, I don't even remember how many pages. 7:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's almost 500 pages. 7:25 [SPEAKER_01]: does not include names of any survivor. 7:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're thinking about reporting, you will remain anonymous to the public. 7:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It will be documented and Richard will make sure that your anonymity is safe, but whatever happened to you is important. 7:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So the report came out in April. 7:50 [SPEAKER_01]: we can post a link to the report on felt late page. 7:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Said you guys can read it. 7:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're all going to look at mascal right away. 7:58 [SPEAKER_01]: There's some interesting information there. 8:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's some implications there that we're going to talk about in a future episode. 8:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Hint Hint. 8:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Jesuit intern that you all know from the keepers and tonight we're going to talk a little bit about the impact that the report has had both from Mary Beth's perspective as the daughter of a survivor and her perspective as a paralegal. 8:28 [SPEAKER_01]: There's one that receiving end of hundreds of calls from people who just don't know what to do. 8:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're also going to get the perspective of Kim, who is a mass-based survivor, and talk to her about how this impacted her life and how she has decided to move forward. 8:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So Shane, I'm going to let you ask the questions to these ladies. 8:54 [SPEAKER_04]: There's a couple of things that I want to add. 8:56 [SPEAKER_04]: The first, the report was 456 pages. 9:00 [SPEAKER_04]: It includes 600 children that date back to 1940s. 9:06 [SPEAKER_04]: While reading through the report, I noticed that one of the things that it was talking about was, to me, when I read it, it seemed like they were possibly going to only include the names of perpetrators, possibly 9:24 [SPEAKER_04]: The 600 children and the amount of abusers that they released in the report is that just based on the documents that they were able to obtain from the archdiocese and through police records? 9:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The 600 is a round number. 9:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that's the tip of the iceberg. 9:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But that would be the number of people who've reported abuse of themselves by clergy in the archdiocese of Baltimore, not the archdiocese in Washington or the archdiocese of Wilmington. 10:01 [SPEAKER_01]: That would be just the middle of the state. 10:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's more information that Richard has. 10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Those would be the 600 plus who actually did a formal report, whether it was face to face, whether it was by phone, Richard met with people at Panera, at their homes. 10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He traveled all over the place, even out of the state to talk to people who have been abused in the archdiocese of Baltimore by archdiocese and clergy. 10:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It includes a few lay people 10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: John Merzbacher was one of them who worked in Catholic schools, but the number of perpetrators that are named are because of those reports. 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So I believe it's 150, I've lost track of some of the numbers who were reported by the 600 individuals who were abused as minors. 11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure that's 11:07 [SPEAKER_01]: resulted in the number of abusers named, and that does not include anybody who facilitated, covered up. 11:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like individuals on a staff, for example, I believe there are a lot of staff members at Kio, who know about this, and some teachers who may have participated, but they were not 11:30 [SPEAKER_01]: priest clergy, they could have been nuns, they could have been teachers, they could have been secretaries, anybody who worked in that building who knew about this, the people that I know of went forward and gave their names of anybody, the facilitators, the cover-up people, and 11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: some of those people have been named in the report, but not all of them. 11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a whole big, really big thousands of people who either facilitated or covered up the abuse in each place where it happened. 12:07 [SPEAKER_03]: That was a long way in the answering an easy question, but that's what I know. 12:17 [SPEAKER_03]: all of them are named as clergy, except for a few lay people, but not very many. 12:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's two. 12:26 [SPEAKER_04]: And there are still five people who are redactives that right? 12:31 [SPEAKER_03]: There's two. 12:32 [SPEAKER_04]: There's two, okay? 12:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, number 154 and number 147 in the list are the only two left that are redacted and you know, it was newspaper reporters that were able to figure out who that was the archdiocese was not forthcoming they were not saying hey we're going to let you know everybody has said we have some really excellent reporters at the sunpapers. 12:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Lee Sandrelin and outstanding reporters at the Baltimore Banner, Julie Sharper and Justin Fenton and they have been responsible with their teams of young investigative reporters and finding out who the redacted names are it's like pieces of a puzzle you get the pieces, but you don't know what it's going to add up to. 13:18 [SPEAKER_04]: I know that when the report first came out, there were a lot more reductions. 13:21 [SPEAKER_04]: What was the process that got those reductions removed and the report updated with West Redactions? 13:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I can probably help a little bit there. 13:31 [SPEAKER_03]: The information came out from the Attorney General's Office that the report was going to be released. 13:40 [SPEAKER_03]: There was no date initially back in November when there was word on the ground that the report was coming, but that the report was going to be released and it was going to be released with reductions in the report. 13:55 [SPEAKER_03]: So from there what happened was there were different parties that filed motions with the court to have the redactions removed. 14:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Now the reason the redactions were there was initially was because they were names that came out of the grand jury investigation. 14:23 [SPEAKER_03]: And when there's a grand jury investigation that is, you know, we're talking top-secret behind closed doors and information. 14:34 [SPEAKER_03]: That's information that the public is not privy to. 14:39 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like when you file something in a state court and you go and you look up 14:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Mary Beth versus Gemma and Boom, it's going to pop up when you have a grand jury investigation that's very sensitive and protected and confidential material. 14:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So the argument was from the archdiocese that some of the names that were in the report came from the grand jury 15:14 [SPEAKER_03]: at that point, there were reductions in the report that was going to be released. 15:20 [SPEAKER_03]: There were motions that were filed by different parties with the circuit court of Baltimore City, and that is by judicial proceeding, that's exactly what needed to happen. 15:33 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to get a judge to grant 15:37 [SPEAKER_03]: whether or not the information that is being provided in a report is the result of a grand jury and it would tamper with any grand jury investigation. 15:49 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's how the process started with getting the redactions unredacted and it was filed with Baltimore City Circuit Court and it was then 16:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Anybody involved any attorneys, any parties that were involved in these proceedings to get this redaction unredacted, it was a sealed proceeding and basically it was a gag. 16:19 [SPEAKER_03]: We had a gag order. 16:20 [SPEAKER_03]: We weren't allowed to talk about it. 16:21 [SPEAKER_03]: we weren't allowed to talk about hearings, we were allowed to talk about what was going on, what the judge had ruled. 16:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So that all started to take place in December the very beginning of December. 16:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And it wasn't until I think April is when the report was released and it was released with reductions, but not as many reductions as initially were going to be produced in the report. 16:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Once the report was released, one of the, I mean, it's a massive report, right? 16:53 [SPEAKER_04]: It's 456 pages. 16:55 [SPEAKER_04]: As I was reading through it, it's kind of overwhelming just as someone and I'm from Indiana. 17:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I am not from Maryland. 17:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not a survivor from Maryland. 17:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So Kim, I would just like to hear about how the report impacted you as a survivor in Maryland. 17:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my gosh. 17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: emotionally and impacted me in many different ways. 17:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess first of all, seeing it on paper, reading through the report and recognizing some of the parishes, to that I had formerly belonged to. 17:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I just very anxious, I'm not the best person to put things in the words, but it just really took a toll on me, like thinking about it nonstop, couldn't think about anything else, and probably more so emotionally. 17:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And also feeling ashamed that I had, I don't know, my family being a Catholic, that was very important to them. 18:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I explained this down on my dad's whole side of the family. 18:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, from way back from a church in Holland town, he had a very large family. 18:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm embarrassed now to let 18:26 [SPEAKER_02]: They still belong to various Catholic churches in Delaware and Maryland in North Carolina. 18:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just, you know, they'll find out this way. 18:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I used to feel like an outcast or like a disappointment. 18:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I've gotten past that now, especially, you know, like going through the list and seeing all the other people that went through even worse scenarios than I did. 18:56 [SPEAKER_02]: like I let somebody down on my part, but then, since then, feeling like the archdiocese really let people down. 19:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead, Marba. 19:13 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to comment only as a daughter of a survivor. 19:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I give a lot of credit to the Attorney General's office, and especially Richard Wolf, because before the word hit the street that this report was coming out, Richard made sure that he contacted every, or close to every person that had reported to him, 19:41 [SPEAKER_03]: to give them a heads up to say, hey, look, you're going to hear and it's coming out and it's going to be traumatizing and re-traumatizing and difficult. 19:54 [SPEAKER_03]: He wanted to prepare survivors that had reported to him. 20:02 [SPEAKER_03]: My mother reported back in 2000, and I don't even remember, I think it was maybe 17, 18. 20:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And when you report from what I've talked to with survivors and with my mother, you know, you're traumatized that when you're report. 20:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And then years go by and like Gemma said this took four years to happen four years go by or three years go by or even two months go by and then you are told that this is going to come out and it's going to come out in black and white so it's no longer a story that you have in your memory and your repressed memory in your head. 20:42 [SPEAKER_03]: It's now something that you're reading. 20:46 [SPEAKER_03]: in black and white and even if your story isn't the full accounting of what took place just seeing it for survivors is extremely, extremely, emotional, traumatizing, triggering anywhere that you can think of for survivors of this abuse and not only that 21:16 [SPEAKER_03]: you are reading a document and I encourage survivors that I talk to don't read the Attorney General's report. 21:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't do it because you may have been abused by a certain clergy member, but then you have a document that's 460 pages long and you're reading about other clergy 21:45 [SPEAKER_03]: We would have never thought that they would be in this report. 21:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And here we go, this report comes out, and not only are you triggered and traumatized and retraumatized by your abuser, but now there are... 22:02 [SPEAKER_03]: 156 other abusers that are listed in this report. 22:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And for me, I'm out of survivor, but I am a daughter of a survivor, and I can tell you that I watched my mother. 22:15 [SPEAKER_03]: I watched her say, oh, my goodness, I can't believe that father so and so, oh, Mary Beth, did you see on page so and she read the report, even though I encouraged her not to, she doesn't listen. 22:29 [SPEAKER_03]: but seeing that in black and white. 22:33 [SPEAKER_03]: is a completely different ballgame for survivors. 22:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And while it was so important that this investigation was done into the Archdiocese of Baltimore to put us where we are today, first survivors, I can imagine how internally it made them feel in their heads, it made them feel. 22:55 [SPEAKER_03]: But I know that the Attorney General was very sensitive in its approach to getting this 23:02 [SPEAKER_03]: report out and letting survivors know that it was coming out before it even hit the street. 23:09 [SPEAKER_04]: life can get overwhelming and talking to someone can make all the difference. 23:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 23:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and as little as a couple of days. 23:28 [SPEAKER_04]: You can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 23:33 [SPEAKER_04]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 23:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 23:50 [SPEAKER_04]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 23:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 23:59 [SPEAKER_04]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 24:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 24:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Start your journey today. 24:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, can did you read the report? 24:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I did, Emma. 24:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, go ahead. 24:26 [SPEAKER_02]: That was the first one I want to hear from you. 24:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Mary Beth is much better at wording things than I am. 24:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just have to be in full agreement with her about it being very traumatizing. 24:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, each time like from the keepers on to the report and then on to into this past April. 24:47 [SPEAKER_02]: knowing did all this was about to blow up. 24:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So go ahead. 24:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a comment, Kim, what you shared with us earlier about the emotions that you experienced that you were embarrassed. 25:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Now your family was going to know that's the intent of predators. 25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And what you're doing tonight, 25:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Jeff, any idea how many people that are listening to you right now are thinking if she can do it, I can too. 25:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope you take that to heart Kim because this is empowering for so many people who have not had 25:29 [SPEAKER_01]: courage or the support and are still holding it all inside. 25:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know we're talking with us tonight doesn't change what happened to you. 25:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But in your frank appraisal of your emotions, you've connected with every single survivor that's listening or their families. 25:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the whole point to a predators abuse of children is the grooming that they do in order to get you where they want you today and look at you, you just said earlier this happened when you were nine and you're 61 now I just turned 63 okay so Kim who won did they win or did you win? 26:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You won, okay? 26:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And everybody, this listening, and everybody that knows you and knows what happened to you is holding you up and putting their arms around you and supporting you because you're making a difference for other people. 26:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Gemma. 26:42 [SPEAKER_01]: You made a difference when we came, just allowing me to talk to you the first time. 26:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You changed my life, Gemma. 26:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You changed my life. 26:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, the very first time, and I know Kim pretty well now after all the months of us communicating back and forth for various reasons. 27:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And I will say that the Attorney General's report while it was traumatizing and it is traumatizing for survivors, the positive that has come out of the Attorney General's report that I'm hearing from survivors is, 27:20 [SPEAKER_03]: They finally are able to understand that all these years, they thought they were alone, and they were the only ones. 27:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And this 400 in some page document has given them the support that they have needed to understand that they are not alone. 27:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And that they have one because they're still here, which is why we call them survivors, and they can stand up, and now be able to say, nope, I'm not holding this anymore. 27:57 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to give it back to the people, the institutions, the predators that should have owned this pain and suffering and everything else that's gone on in survivors lives. 28:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is the big positive, I mean, there's a lot of positives that came out of the dirty general and their investigation, but the one big thing that I hear a lot is that survivors finally understand that they're not alone. 28:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And they weren't alone while they felt like they were alone and they probably felt like they were alone up until April when this report came out and maybe still feel like they're alone these strengths to be able to 28:43 [SPEAKER_03]: report to Richard Wolf now because he trusts me. 28:46 [SPEAKER_03]: He still wants to hear. 28:47 [SPEAKER_03]: He still wants to talk to survivors and get more information on what took place and also with the child victims act being passed. 28:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It is also given the survivors the strength knowing that they're not alone. 29:06 [SPEAKER_03]: But also the strength because they're not alone to be able to stand up and say you're not going to win you haven't won and with the child's victim act being passed now I'm going to hopefully be able to get some accountability that you so deserve. 29:28 [SPEAKER_04]: But before I ask you both about your feelings about the bankruptcy process that the archdiocese is going through, I just wanted to add into this conversation, just a small little piece about maybe it was me being naive of being a young person from Indiana, but I thought before the attorney general was going to release the report, I thought that the report was going 29:55 [SPEAKER_04]: just individual pieces of this priest was accused of abuse. 30:01 [SPEAKER_04]: And then this priest was accused of abuse. 30:04 [SPEAKER_04]: But then when I read to the report, you have individual stories of these abusers. 30:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think for me, that's what makes it so difficult to read, because not only do you read about this abuse, it also shares the story about the internal communication that was happening. 30:26 [SPEAKER_04]: The proof that these priests and the archdiocese and the people in charge knew about it, 30:38 [SPEAKER_04]: And so even when you get a few pages in, just your emotions just become overwhelming, I remember just not being able to get very far into the report in each sitting. 30:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And I can't imagine going through there trying to read about your abuser or, you know, a Mary Beth's case, your mom's abuser. 30:59 [SPEAKER_04]: and then seeing that and then seeing, oh, there was a well, or, you know, there were internal communications. 31:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Like just the emotions, I just want to say to both of you that, I think that everyone listening will feel for you. 31:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, on the other side of the coin, and I don't mean to sound cruel about this, but the reality is that the living perpetrators, they don't care. 31:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They're afraid of going to jail, but they don't have emotions. 31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: They're psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists. 31:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And right now, I don't really think the archbishop cares. 31:39 [SPEAKER_01]: They're caring about money. 31:40 [SPEAKER_01]: They're caring about what they're going to have to give up or lose, or who's going to find out something about them. 31:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Courage, whatever it might be, are not matched by shame or courage on the other side. 31:59 [SPEAKER_01]: If they were, this would not have been hidden since 1940. 32:05 [SPEAKER_01]: The archdiocesan leaders, they could have been heroes. 32:10 [SPEAKER_01]: They could have been heroes and they are cowards and they continue to be. 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: They deny, they hide, they get switched around just like the abusers were. 32:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're emotionally, you're not matched by theirs because you had this done to you and you won 32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: care. 32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The ones that are living are trying to figure out how to get out of town and how to avoid ending up in jail. 32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the truth of it, which makes those of us who are advocates were survivors. 32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes it that much harder to stomach. 32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't mean to be such a realist but that really is, they don't feel sorry for any of us. 32:58 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't feel sorry for you. 33:00 [SPEAKER_01]: they're saying, yeah, we're sorry for this, but they don't care. 33:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It's over for them. 33:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They're just trying to get through it with minimal damage. 33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what, that ain't going to happen because we're about ready to do major damage, right? 33:13 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a threat to anybody, but right if I'm going away, I know Shane you wanted to ask Mary Beth and Chen about how the bankruptcy has impacted them. 33:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I also want to add real quick, Gemma, that I think that we know what side, the business of the archdiocese is on when before the report comes out, they'll preach about transparency. 33:35 [SPEAKER_04]: And then we find out that they're the ones who are the people who are trying to prevent transparency from coming out. 33:42 [SPEAKER_04]: But yes, why don't we start with Kim? 33:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Kim, I wonder if you could just talk to me a little bit about your thoughts behind the archdiocese filing for 33:54 [SPEAKER_02]: In 2016, when I actually realized what was going on one late night and then about a year later, I received a call from Gemma about the keepers. 34:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I never thought anything was going to come to light with any of this. 34:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought what I was getting from Gemma was just validating what I had 34:23 [SPEAKER_02]: But then when all of this, with the reports started coming out, I began feeling like if this really happens, not that I really anticipated anything happening with the arts diocese, I kind of thought they'd realize what had happened and they were going to. 34:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess compensate the victims, but then when I was at Mr. Jenner's office and 34:56 [SPEAKER_02]: We had a visit there and my got home that day, about two hours later, he called me to let me know that they went ahead and found bankruptcy, which is what they were anticipating. 35:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And for me, I felt like when a mask on, he was shifted from 35:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was the Boy Scouts, something with all boys, and they moved him to Kiel because he liked boys, and this was an all-girl school. 35:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I became a victim of his. 35:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, it was okay for the Archdiocese to move them around, pay to move them, like these little 35:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And then now they want to keep their money for them. 35:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What was going on with Maskel and his brother and the men that he was bringing in to abuse the victims? 36:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that was all okay. 36:05 [SPEAKER_02]: But now they want to not really keep a quiet. 36:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's got nap there. 36:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And then when I saw it in black and white. 36:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, they have all these things that are precious to them. 36:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what meaning they have. 36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like they need value. 36:21 [SPEAKER_02]: They need, I guess, to be, you know, they're the first archdiocese. 36:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure, financially, they're very well off. 36:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't understand why we just couldn't, 36:38 [SPEAKER_02]: decide to either do a fund or pay out to the victims that came forward and just in a sense apologize for what they let happen to me to Mary Beth's mother and every other victim. 36:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, some of the stories are just sick, very sad. 37:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Mary Beth, I'm going to ask you the same question when the archdiocese started talking about bankruptcy. 37:08 [SPEAKER_04]: When was the first time you knew that that was a possibility and what are your thoughts around it? 37:16 [SPEAKER_03]: On the legal end of this, we were prepared to file cases, October the first, when the child's victim act would go into effect. 37:30 [SPEAKER_03]: October the first was a Sunday. 37:33 [SPEAKER_03]: which means every court in Maryland except for Baltimore City, which ironically is where most of the cases would have been filed. 37:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Baltimore City Circuit Court is the only court in Maryland that doesn't have electronic filing. 37:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So you physically have to take a filing down to the courthouse and get a date stamped and so on and so forth. 37:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So 37:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing could be filed with Baltimore City Circuit Court until October 2, even though the child's victim act went into effect on October 1. 38:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Our office was preparing and had been preparing for cases to be filed. 38:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Some electronically we were going to file some where we had some prepared to be filed electronically. 38:20 [SPEAKER_03]: in other counties. 38:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we had some that were going to be hand taken to the circuit court one that Monday. 38:31 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say two weeks, maybe three, prior to that date, there was, I'll say word on the street that the archdiocese was talking about bankruptcy. 38:45 [SPEAKER_03]: And 38:48 [SPEAKER_03]: on the legal end. 38:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we knew that it was a possibility they were going to play that card as I say it. 38:56 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember the date of the email that I got from the archdiocese from Lori. 39:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I am on the archdiocese and listserv because of my children being in the archdiocese 39:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And we got a letter on a Sunday night. 39:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was maybe the week before October 1st. 39:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not on a percent sure from the arch from Lori stating that they were talking about thinking about and consulting with their attorneys about the possibility of having to file bankruptcy. 39:36 [SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, what I got from that letter and I immediately passed it on to Mr. Jenner and 39:44 [SPEAKER_03]: My immediate thought was here we go again. 39:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to blame the survivors for them coming forward and filing claims under the News Child Victims Act that would ultimately give them some accountability because money is not going to change what happened to anybody and it's not going to make anything different for any survivor. 40:10 [SPEAKER_03]: but it's going to give them the accountability and for the archdiocese, you know, what do you say? 40:18 [SPEAKER_03]: You hit him in the pocket and that's where it hurts. 40:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 40:21 [SPEAKER_03]: So we get this email and my immediate thought was, oh, so now we're going to blame survivors. 40:30 [SPEAKER_03]: The archdiocese is going to have to think about filing bankruptcy because survivors are coming forward. 40:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Friday the 29th at 1-10 in the afternoon, we got word that the Archdiocesan had filed for bankruptcy. 40:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, my take on it as a paralegal and as a daughter of a survivor was, how in the world do you fall bankruptcy when you don't even know what's being filed against you? 41:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Or is it that you do know what's going to be filed against you? 41:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Because the law doesn't go into effect until two days from when they filed for bankruptcy. 41:11 [SPEAKER_03]: So we have a bankruptcy being filed based on potential claims that are going to be filed against the archdiocese, is how I was viewing it. 41:23 [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, it said, we know that there are 41:33 [SPEAKER_03]: hundreds, maybe thousands of claims. 41:37 [SPEAKER_03]: They could potentially be brought against us. 41:40 [SPEAKER_03]: So we better do this. 41:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we're going to be screwed. 41:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, ironically, if you look in the court's records in Maryland, there weren't hundreds of claims that were filed. 41:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Because honestly, a lot of survivors that I've talked to weren't 100% ready to file civil claims. 42:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Because civil claims means 42:14 [SPEAKER_03]: B, you've got to go through the retraumatization of living what happened to you all over again in front of people in front of a jury, being deposed, being berated by defense counsel potentially in a deposition civil litigation isn't just let's file lawsuit and archdiocese you can give me money. 42:39 [SPEAKER_03]: that's not how it works. 42:41 [SPEAKER_03]: So while I'm sure there were going to be a lot of cases filed against them, I read it as they knew potentially. 42:52 [SPEAKER_03]: how many cases were going to be filed against them because they've always known that this abuse was out there. 43:00 [SPEAKER_03]: So to me, it was let's throw it back on the survivors that, oh, because you're going to file a claim against us for the abuse that we had and should have protected you as a child. 43:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And now there is an opportunity in the civil litigation world for unifile acclaim. 43:23 [SPEAKER_03]: And what are we going to do now? 43:28 [SPEAKER_03]: We gave survivors of voice when this child's victim act was passed. 43:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Finally. 43:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And then once again, the archdiocese says, oh no, we're going to take away your voice again. 43:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to file bankruptcy. 43:47 [SPEAKER_03]: So everything is stayed and nobody can file a claim against us in civil court. 43:52 [SPEAKER_03]: You can file in bankruptcy court, but not in civil court. 43:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Completely different thing. 43:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not a bankruptcy paralegal. 43:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So I can't speak on that. 44:00 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's how I saw it on a legal end and that's how I saw it on a personal end was once again the Archdiocese of Baltimore said. 44:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, you're not going to do this wearing control, and we're going to file bankruptcy so that wearing control of how things are going to be handled, and that's just from speaking to survivors and just really being passionate and advocate for survivors, because they were given the opportunity finally to get some accountability, and then once again the archdiocese took 44:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Jim and my question for you would be the same question. 44:47 [SPEAKER_04]: What did you think when the church filed for the bankruptcy? 44:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We honest with you, I was devastated because I read everything in the newspaper and not all its accurate when I fell certain reporters and they are pretty good at reporting what's going on. 45:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And my feeling was that this negated everything we had worked 45:09 [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm not sure that that's true. 45:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess what I would wanna know from Mary Beth is why now should somebody seek legal assistance and why now should somebody file a lawsuit? 45:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there any point in doing that and is there a deadline? 45:35 [SPEAKER_03]: So I can answer part of that the part I can tell you is absolutely any survivor that is of clergy abuse by the archdiocese of Baltimore needs to seek legal representation so that claims can be filed in the United States bankruptcy court in Baltimore now. 45:58 [SPEAKER_03]: It is a completely different process. 46:00 [SPEAKER_03]: There aren't trials. 46:02 [SPEAKER_03]: There aren't juries. 46:03 [SPEAKER_03]: There aren't depositions. 46:06 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a civil litigation. 46:07 [SPEAKER_03]: It is a bankruptcy proceeding. 46:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And the bankruptcy proceeding. 46:14 [SPEAKER_03]: allows survivors to still file claims against the archdiocese of Baltimore and still be compensated but in a different format. 46:27 [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know currently what the deadline will be for those claims to have to be filed but what I will say is we anticipate that it will be 46:40 [SPEAKER_03]: sooner than later. 46:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And once that time bar is out there, let's say it's March 30th. 46:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Making updates, I don't know, but let's say it's March 30th. 46:53 [SPEAKER_03]: If you as a survivor have not made a claim in the United States bankruptcy court against the archdiocese of Baltimore. 47:03 [SPEAKER_03]: You will be forever barred from filing a claim, whether it be civil, there will be no civil claims, or even in bankruptcy. 47:16 [SPEAKER_03]: There will be no more bankruptcy claims that can be filed once that date is given, and I do not know what that date is, but the claims can be made and need to be made. 47:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Send into the court and everything's all taken care of. 47:37 [SPEAKER_03]: My firm is actually working very diligently right now. 47:41 [SPEAKER_03]: One working up claim forms so that we can get them filed prior to whatever the date is that gets set. 47:49 [SPEAKER_03]: But yes, every survivor needs to consult with an attorney and get their claims filed. 47:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It's important because once that bar date hits, 48:02 [SPEAKER_03]: then we won't have the ability to get any accountability, monetary settlement, whatever we want to call them at bankruptcy court. 48:13 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's very, very important to consult with an attorney. 48:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that you can understand what exactly will take place by filing a claim with the bankruptcy court against the archdiocese. 48:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Because once that bar date hits, we're done. 48:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to ask something real quickly, and this is for a select group of listening, and my correct that if a perpetrator is living, and a survivor has fruits that perpetrator committed 48:52 [SPEAKER_01]: is it possible to file criminal charges against that person? 48:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I know the only way to solve a code case, I did learn this, is I witnessed a confession or DNA. 49:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if an individual, man or woman, has evidence, probably DNA, 49:15 [SPEAKER_01]: that that capital crime was committed against them, then they have grounds to file criminal charges. 49:27 [SPEAKER_01]: against that perpetrator, is that correct? 49:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That is correct. 49:31 [SPEAKER_01]: There are no statute of limitations on capital crimes. 49:34 [SPEAKER_03]: There's absolutely no statute of limitation on a criminal act. 49:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess realistically, I'm thinking about, I know there are women out there who have children, who's fathers are clergy members. 49:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And those women were raped. 49:53 [SPEAKER_01]: and they had a child. 49:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And if their perpetrator is living, a paternity test would prove that and they could take that person to court on criminal charges, correct? 50:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Shane and Mary Beth, do you agree? 50:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I absolutely agree. 50:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And I absolutely would encourage. 50:14 [SPEAKER_03]: We don't, you know, I don't in 27 years of my career. 50:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I've never done criminal, but I would there is no statute of limitations in the criminal world and. 50:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It needs to be reported, and there needs to be movement on a investigation. 50:32 [SPEAKER_03]: You have every right in the United States of America that if you've had a crime committed against you to report that crime and have that crime investigated, and I will say, I'm going to get the name wrong, Jim, and you're going to have to help me. 50:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Prime victims resource center. 50:58 [SPEAKER_03]: They are amazing. 50:59 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you have any questions or concerns or just need information, they are a plethora of information and help and compassion. 51:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we'll invite him to an episode with us. 51:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's amazing. 51:15 [SPEAKER_03]: He, because their center is absolutely amazing. 51:17 [SPEAKER_03]: But yes, in Maryland, in the United States, there is no statute of limitations for criminal act. 51:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Mary Beth, why would someone decide to try to press charges for a criminal act versus a civil charge? 51:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Civil litigation is a proceeding in which you are seeking recovery for personal injury damages, and it doesn't mean a broken arm or something to that degree. 51:48 [SPEAKER_03]: It can be 51:49 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, damages are damages and they're weighed in different ways in a civil action. 51:54 [SPEAKER_03]: So a civil action is when you are seeking a recovery for damages that you sustain as a result of the abuse. 52:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's say, in a criminal proceeding, you're not seeking damages. 52:12 [SPEAKER_03]: You are pressing charges against a person that has committed a crime and that person if they are found guilty if they are charged and then convicted. 52:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, be held to whatever the criminal statute is for that particular crime, we would hope in these cases it would be incarceration for the rest of their lives. 52:42 [SPEAKER_03]: In a civil litigation, you're seeking individual damages against either an institution or the individual and or the individual that committed. 52:52 [SPEAKER_03]: the damage is to you, but in a civil litigation, it's criminal, meaning you're pressing charges to get someone convicted of a crime. 53:02 [SPEAKER_04]: And for criminal cases, do you have to have a higher level of burden if we're? 53:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you do. 53:09 [SPEAKER_04]: So that might be a little bit more difficult for a 53:14 [SPEAKER_03]: It could be the scales of justice or different and a criminal matter, which is why, you know, criminal cases from long ago are hard, but just because they're hard doesn't mean that they shouldn't happen. 53:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And now, in Maryland, we have some amazing people that are in positions to assert charges and to prosecute these criminals. 53:44 [SPEAKER_04]: I will also say that along those lines, I was amazed from the report by all the things that will turn you general was able to get his hands on in terms of like the internal memos and things from the archdiocese talking about how they knew of abusers. 54:01 [SPEAKER_04]: That was really amazing for me to see and hopefully that would give some survivors some you know relief that those documents could still be there if they reported or user back then. 54:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And the one thing I will say is that now in 2023, almost 2024, what I can say about our criminal justice system is that it's much, much different of who's in these positions now than it was. 54:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, the Archdiocese is no longer in control and the criminal proceedings and the prosecutors and the state's attorneys and the Maryland Attorney General are four survivors. 54:47 [SPEAKER_03]: It's no longer the Archdiocese is in control of everything. 54:50 [SPEAKER_03]: survivors are in control and they have the support and they have the resources now in place with who we have sitting and who we've elected into these positions some amazing people that are four survivors and we'll do what needs to happen to the best that they can to make sure that they get these criminals prosecuted. 55:16 [SPEAKER_04]: I saw that in the report it talked about how they had proof of documentation, especially of them talking internally about this, of their at some point in time in Baltimore and in Maryland, of the press, having involvement with the archdiocese and the court system. 55:39 [SPEAKER_04]: So if survivors try to go to the press or try to press charges, the archdiocese had people in those positions and they could just squash it. 55:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And they have documents showing that they were doing just that, they were just squashing it all. 55:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, how corrupt can you be? 55:58 [SPEAKER_04]: It's absolutely ridiculous. 56:00 [SPEAKER_04]: And even if you could look past and get through and stomach all the horrendous stories, 56:09 [SPEAKER_04]: like the archdiocese come on. 56:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Kim, Mary Beth, I want to ask you both as we wrap up here. 56:16 [SPEAKER_04]: We want to turn this over to you. 56:18 [SPEAKER_04]: If there's any last minute thoughts that you have, you have the floor here. 56:22 [SPEAKER_04]: People are listening. 56:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have any advice for them? 56:26 [SPEAKER_04]: If they're on the fence about reporting, do you have anything that you would like to say? 56:31 [SPEAKER_04]: And I'll start with you Kim. 56:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 56:35 [SPEAKER_02]: If there is someone or 56:37 [SPEAKER_02]: if there are people out there listening and they haven't come forth yet, I would highly recommend that you do. 56:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it'll be a big relief off of your chest and I think you owe it to yourself and not to worry about what others think and take the archdiocese out. 57:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Mary, 57:05 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to echo exactly what Kim said. 57:08 [SPEAKER_03]: It now is the time. 57:10 [SPEAKER_03]: You're not alone. 57:11 [SPEAKER_03]: The Attorney General's report itself has brought about that for sure. 57:18 [SPEAKER_03]: That you are not alone. 57:19 [SPEAKER_03]: There are people that can support you. 57:23 [SPEAKER_03]: It's time you have a voice. 57:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Speak to, I won't say call me, but you can call me. 57:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And I will do anything and absolutely everything possible to get you the accountability that you so deserve. 57:43 [SPEAKER_03]: It's time, unfortunately, the, you know, with the bankruptcy, it's time barred. 57:49 [SPEAKER_03]: So we don't know what that time bar is yet, but come forward. 57:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Speak to someone. 57:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Get your story. 57:56 [SPEAKER_03]: as a claim so that the archdiocese guess what you can't tell us to sit down and shut up because we're going to stand up and yell and if it means in bankruptcy court so be it but it's still time to get it done and it's very very important and it's amazing how many times I've heard survivors say 58:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, I've never told my story and now I've told my story and I haven't had a nightmare since I've told my story and we're here to listen to help to support your not alone we're all in this to I guess I don't want to say take the archdioces down because that's not professionally what I'm supposed to say, but as a survivor of a daughter, let's take the archdioces down because we don't have to take them down. 58:49 [SPEAKER_03]: but we have to hold them accountable. 58:52 [SPEAKER_04]: And German, do you want to say anything? 58:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, I always have something to say. 58:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Aren't I lucky to have these three people in my life? 59:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just love you guys. 59:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to thank you, Vow, and Shane, for this show, this evening. 59:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to tell our listeners that they do not want to miss the next episode, because we are going to be talking about, 59:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They Jesuit intern and one of the women who has alleged 59:25 [SPEAKER_01]: inappropriate behavior by him is going to be our guest. 59:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to post the article that was in the Baltimore banner about Mr. Jerry Coove. 59:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can read it and we're going to say as much as we are permitted to do without breaking confidentialities, but we are going to be 59:53 [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely outraged at his response and his denials, and you will meet her when the next episode of Falplay. 60:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Love you guys, thank you!
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