0:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much. 0:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 0:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey Theresa, how are you? 0:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good. 0:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good. 0:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I bet you're still. 0:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm good. 0:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you hear me, okay? 0:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can hear you. 0:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect. 0:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can hear you just fine. 0:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that you're comfortable. 0:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm in Randy's reading chair, which is very comfortable. 0:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Good. 0:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in a hotel in Pittsburgh, actually. 0:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Oddly enough, not far from where Sister Kathy's buried. 1:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh well. 1:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, whenever I travel to Baltimore, it brings me through this area. 1:07 [SPEAKER_01]: We are really nice. 1:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's nice. 1:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've stopped there. 1:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever actually I have and I should put that on a list of today's really. 1:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you're ever in the area, it's pretty easy to find. 1:20 [SPEAKER_02]: The cemetery is actually a really cool old cemetery. 1:23 [SPEAKER_02]: The town that it's in is a really cool town anyway, just to visit. 1:28 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really cool area, really historic, but yeah, it's a really cool place. 1:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you ever in Pittsburgh, I definitely would recommend stopping. 1:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll do that. 1:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks. 1:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all right. 1:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So Teresa, the attorney general, we've been waiting on it. 1:44 [SPEAKER_02]: We've done a lot of podcasts about the report. 1:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Jim and I have shared with people to contact the attorney general investigator who's been working on this entire investigation. 1:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And now it seems like finally after these four years the report is finished and it's been turned over and sounds like now we're just waiting to see if they're going to be able to release it is that right. 2:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's sent to the circuit court for the judge to a rule, whether it gets released. 2:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they had 15 days of the church did to fall, something against this. 2:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But we do know that there's an anonymous group asking to seal the proceedings. 2:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into the anonymous thing, can you just explain how and why the report is sealed and why they have to wait for the court to hopefully release it? 2:42 [SPEAKER_01]: When the report is going to include a lot of names and a lot of very personal information, they have to put a motion before the court so that other people, such as the anonymous group, 3:01 [SPEAKER_01]: they have to have legitimate ground to oppose the release of this investigation because the sexual crimes were so heinous, and they would have to convince the judge why it should not come to light. 3:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And the attorney general did the entire investigation through a grand jury correct? 3:22 [SPEAKER_01]: That's correct, yes. 3:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a part of why he has to go through that court system, is that right? 3:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he has to present it in the circuit court for the judge to rule so we do we'll go ahead that was going to bring up the anonymous group And again, only because I looked into that and I found out some information about the anonymous group 3:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's go ahead and talk about the anonymous group. 3:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What we know about them is, at some point, we all were waiting to see if the other party who was the Archdiocese of Baltimore, the Attorney General gave his report over to the court and the only other party that could have seen the report would have been the Archdiocese of Baltimore. 4:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that right? 4:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because the report is based on a subpoena the subpoena the lot of documents from the arts diocese I think it was like a hundred thousand out a hundred thousand pages and the report is based on the arch diocese information then they have an opportunity to look through it. 4:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense? 4:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 4:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 4:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And although we don't have the report, what the attorney general did release as the filing is that right. 4:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes. 4:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And in the filing, it mentions that there was 158 Catholic priests that were accused of sexual abuse. 4:55 [SPEAKER_01]: number of priests that were mentioned, I think, is the result of the witnesses that came for to the Attorney General. 5:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I went in there and I told them, Father Masks will abuse me, and they take down all that information. 5:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I believe that's where they got all the names were from witnesses. 5:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we know from the filing that there were more than 600 victims 5:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the 600 victims, I think it's just the tip of the iceberg. 5:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there are many, many more, hundreds more victims. 5:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's another thing. 5:33 [SPEAKER_01]: This report is centered around the arts, diocese of Baltimore. 5:38 [SPEAKER_01]: There are other diocese in Maryland, and if they included all of them, it would be even more victims. 5:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I also wonder if that 600 number is just a number of people who felt comfortable enough to talk to the investigators from the Attorney General's office. 5:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 6:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of people that can't talk about this. 6:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And many six cases go unreported. 6:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to consider if there's 600 that we know of how many more are in the door. 6:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 6:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 6:14 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good point. 6:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And we know from that number, the 158 Catholic priests that the Attorney General found were accused of sexual abuse, that 43 of them were never publicly announced or publicly named by the Archdiocese. 6:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that's a huge number, 43 was never released. 6:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's troubling me too because the church is leaning on some key words about properly accused or properly investigated. 6:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to bring that up that they want to protect the privacy of these people that they were not found incredibly accused by the church. 6:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And out of the 13 living church officials that have been accused, the church makes sure we know that they're entitled to representation. 7:11 [SPEAKER_02]: It's still crazy to me that the church does their own investigating, and that they are the keyholder on deciding on who is incredibly accused and who's not incredibly accused. 7:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, they're the ones that get to say on who's name is being released and who's name is not being released. 7:30 [SPEAKER_02]: When I talked to Sean Kane, my interview with Sean Kane is from 2019. 7:36 [SPEAKER_02]: one of the things that that I got out of it was that when they deemed someone as credibly accused, they still were not placing them on any type of list where like for example, I have an app where I can see all of the sexual predators in my neighborhood. 7:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And that wasn't the same thing for these priests because this is an internal organization doing their own naming and their own investigation. 8:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just crazy to me. 8:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Even if you go to the Archdiocese website now and you go to report abuse, the very first thing they want you to do is to contact them. 8:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Now there is a secondary line that says and also contact the police, but that line you can tell it's been added and it's the second thought, but that should be the very first thing you do. 8:28 [SPEAKER_02]: If you are abused by a priest, do not contact the archdiocese, your first move should be contacting the police. 8:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 8:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 8:37 [SPEAKER_01]: You're very right. 8:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I have named people victims that actually reported it first to the archdiocese and they were talked out of going any further. 8:48 [SPEAKER_01]: The archdiocese will get their hands on you and manipulate you and use words to confuse you and you won't ever go to the police. 8:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You're right. 8:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Go to the police first and make sure you got it on record. 9:06 [SPEAKER_01]: the priest they are living among us and that has been found out time and again that we should be able to have them on the sexual abuse list like we do in our neighborhoods like I can look at my neighborhood and see who the sex offenders are put those priest on those lists too. 9:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's especially important because, like, for example, if you live in a retirement village or if you have a mom or a dad that lives in one, if there is a former priest that lives in one, you're going to probably trust your kids around them just because, oh, it's father's son's now, the people who are listening to this probably will not, however, the normal, you know, the normal people probably would just because of the fact of them 9:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's a very important thing to take away that these people, whether or not the church deem them as credibly accused for whatever reason, they're not being monitored and they're not being listed or anything like that. 10:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's a very important takeaway. 10:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But I know that is important. 10:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when the attorney general Brian Frost, when he handed over the report, he mentioned that he believed that it was time to release the full report to the public because, quote, it was time for a reckoning. 10:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And he talked about how, 10:32 [SPEAKER_02]: During his investigation, he saw countless times when the archdiocese and people in charge of priests were covering up the abuse that was happening. 10:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think it's important for people to realize that he is using that kind of language as reasons for why this report should be public. 10:54 [SPEAKER_01]: directly and it's time and again the archdiocese chose the abuser over the abused and people are entitled to know that see how the system worked out of these I think it's 456 page report people can read how they move 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: priest from Paris to Paris. 11:15 [SPEAKER_01]: There are some people that don't know what happened. 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And in Father Maskel's case, he was found to abuse boys, alter boys, and so the church is the answer was to put him in the all-girl Catholic High School, Kiyo, because I guess they figured he wasn't interested in girls. 11:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, the public has a right to know how they covered this up. 11:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and in the filing that the attorney general put in, that filing suggests that the official report lists out who oversaw these priests and accuses them of not doing enough to protect the victims who were victimized by those very priests. 11:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And that brings us to this very kind of shady thing that happened. 12:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So the archdiocese, of course, who was the other party in this, they received the report, the only party to have received the report. 12:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And they come out and Theresa, they say that they're not going to object to that, is that right? 12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but you have to read the language they use. 12:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I pulled out a couple of lines that they said they're committed to transparency to rebuild trust, but they include should include responsible and accurate reporting of events. 12:39 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a cry period they want to be reported to me. 12:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, they 12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: agree to release does not mean legal requirements should not be observed. 12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And then those names should be heard. 12:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's they talk out of those sides of their mouth, they're not going to post, but it looks to me like there's a gray area where they will object and they'll be redacting name, I believe. 13:07 [SPEAKER_02]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 13:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 13:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 13:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 13:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection, and daily group sessions on a variety of topics, and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 13:48 [SPEAKER_02]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4-point star rating on trust pilot. 13:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 13:57 [SPEAKER_02]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 14:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 14:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Start your journey today. 14:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It almost seems like the archdiocese of Baltimore as an organization wants to look like they're going to be transparent. 14:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And in doing so, this is a whole marketing thing where these newspapers are going to report with which they have the quotes from the officials at the archdiocese saying that they are not going to oppose the report, the accurate report that we should say. 14:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what so far people have been reporting, however, the day after they released those statements, we know that there was this group effort of a filing that went through to the very court to try to seal this report. 14:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And Theresa, can you correct me in my statement of saying this? 15:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's what I wanted to get to. 15:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The people that are representing the anonymous group are attorney's great burn sting and William Murphy. 15:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And Yuri, Archbishop Lori, has engaged burn sting in the past. 15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: a wheeling Charleston West Virginia Diacy. 15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So that lawyer worked for Laurie and also Bernstein represented the Catholic priest Michael J. Spilling S. P. I. L. A. N. E. who admitted to abusing six children and Baltimore. 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So Bernstein's name has come up at least in my research twice. 16:05 [SPEAKER_01]: where he'd been in a turning for the church. 16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That mean, who is this anonymous group? 16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: They must have something to do with the church, you know? 16:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And we also have to think like, what I saw this news come through that they filed this filing with the court, the only information that they released was that lawyers representing anonymous clients, that they filed to keep the report a secret. 16:31 [SPEAKER_02]: and then there was this quote that clients are named on the report, and this is a quote that the attorney said that their clients are named on the report, but they are not accused of sexual abuse, and that they would only identify their clients in a closed sealed proceeding. 16:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So Teresa, what is a sealed proceeding? 16:54 [SPEAKER_01]: it's just another way of secrecy. 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be closed then the public's not going to have access to the information. 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very suspicious, very suspicious. 17:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, basically you have these attorneys representing one group of people. 17:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And what we know is that the only group that received the report is the Archdiocese of Baltimore. 17:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I racked my brain around trying to figure out like who else could have gotten this report because no one else is getting it. 17:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone think about this for a minute. 17:27 [SPEAKER_02]: All of these news channels, all of these newspapers are reporting on this report. 17:33 [SPEAKER_02]: If this report was able to be leaked anywhere, you'd find it some, it's not been leaked. 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not been, it's not been, it has to be these lawyers. 17:43 [SPEAKER_01]: for the anonymous group had to have been the same by the archdiocese who has the report. 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's common sense, which are saying. 17:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Shortly after Theresa and I recorded this conversation, within an hour, news broke that the archdiocese of Baltimore is in fact paying the attorney fees of this anonymous group. 18:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And to further that, had to think to myself, the entire reason for the report and all of the reporting that's on it is going to be talking about victims talking about them being abused and how they reported it. 18:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And in my thinking, I'm really seriously wonder if these are going to be named, like, if these attorneys are representing people who victim say that they've reported or knew about the abuse happening and maybe that they are trying to sue to get it prevented from coming out because it makes them look bad. 18:56 [SPEAKER_02]: because one thing we do know is that when the Pennsylvania report went out because in all of the US, the only report from an attorney general investigating wrongdoing of a history of child sexual abuse by clergy, it's only happened in one other state and that was in Pennsylvania. 19:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And in Pennsylvania, it took two years and this is a four-year investigation that's been happening 19:26 [SPEAKER_02]: As a result of their report, there was a lot of arrests, there were arrests of priests, there was an early retirement of their archbishop, and there was a bunch of new policies put into place. 19:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can't help but just wonder, who is this group of people trying to prevent this report coming out? 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's crazy. 19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: My attorney Kirk Wolfgang from the Maryland Crime Victims Research Center. 19:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I agreed to fall a motion of support of the grand jury subpoena on my behalf. 20:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Gene Wainer is also represented by Kirk Wolfgang and has joined in filing a motion of support. 20:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And this Kurt pointed out to me that there's no indication of criminal indictments or ongoing criminal investigations into this conspiracy like you were saying in Pennsylvania had indictments in Pennsylvania and we don't see where anybody's going to face justice yet and it's troubling since the state's pending motion to disclose refers to the 43 new alleged abusers names. 20:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And 13 still living why aren't their indictment, but the reason Pennsylvania was able to indict people is because I guess the names were made public and it's someone can make the crime then they should answer to that. 20:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really confusing to me on why there are so many names in this report and why there would be so many living people, but there would be no one, at least no charges being pressed, at least press charges and have that day in court. 21:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly. 21:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And this motion to the court to support the release, hopefully the judge will take all this in the consideration. 21:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree. 21:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that everyone will not stand for this anonymous group coming in and if by any means that anonymous group is able to get any names redacted from the report. 21:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that enough people will come together and speak out against that happening and get something done to change that. 21:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that snap and our group will come forth about that because we've waited long enough decades. 21:43 [SPEAKER_01]: We've waited long enough to get these names out there and seek justice. 21:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know if they were likely redact any of the names in the report, but beyond, of course, this group wants to prevent the entire report from coming out, but would they redact any parts of the report? 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I expect the reduction of those 13 living people, which is tragic. 22:08 [SPEAKER_01]: because we have a right to know who they are. 22:11 [SPEAKER_02]: It is very tragic and I hope that we hear soon the result of this. 22:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any idea of how long the court has to make a decision or because of the new filing by the anonymous group will push back the timeline at all? 22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe there was 15 days to respond. 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hopeful that the release of this report. 22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: will provide an understanding of how important the look-back window is in the statute and the patient's reform. 22:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're talking over the past eight years, all this abuse. 22:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And when we get to read exactly what was done to these children, people can get an understanding of why it is so important that we give the victims of voice in the court room. 23:00 [SPEAKER_02]: This is Gene Wainer at the SNAP press conference in Maryland. 23:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Gene, who are getting wainer. 23:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I was abused at our Trishap Keo High School for three plus years. 23:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of practicing Catholics, I spent many hours sitting in church pews listening to the priest with a deep respect for their position within my faith community. 23:26 [SPEAKER_00]: In 1992, I was so distraught with memories of being sexually and psychologically abused in the late 1960s by Father Joseph Mass School and Father Neil Magnus at my Catholic high school that I stood up and went to my church leaders for help. 23:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Father Rick Wuwei told me I was the first person to voice a complaint of this kind about Joseph Maskel. 23:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, I continued to believe that I was Maskel's only victim. 23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: With time I learned of other victims of Maskel and wondered if my faith leaders had lied to me. 24:05 [SPEAKER_00]: The peak of this awareness was when I heard that around 1966, 67, the mom of an alter-boy named Charles learned what their church pastor Joseph Maskel was doing to her son. 24:19 [SPEAKER_00]: She called the archdiocese of Baltimore and told the church representatives to basically tell Maskel to leave my boy alone. 24:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Shortly after that call, in 1967, the church authorities moved Moscow from Charles' parish to Archbishop Kiyo, the new All Girls High School, where I, unfortunately, was starting as a freshman, and eventually became one of Moscow's victims. 24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Joseph Moscow was in his 50s when I came forward in 1992. 24:55 [SPEAKER_00]: The Statue of Limitations at that time was three years after abuse ended that it had to be reported. 25:03 [SPEAKER_00]: The church paid a lot of money during our 1995, 1996 lost and nail to keep the Statue of Limitations in place. 25:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It is the archdiocese of Baltimore's fault, not ours that Maskel died before being charged with a crime. 25:22 [SPEAKER_00]: For them to say that these perpetrators are dead, I feel they need to be held accountable for their responsibility and making sure they died before they were ever charged criminal. 25:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe the Maryland Attorney General Supreme Court is about to shine light on many hidden truths throughout the Archdiocese of Baltimore. 25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It is time for Catholic sitting and church views, like I once was, to stand up and demand accountability from their leaders. 25:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It is your church and you have a right to hold your leaders responsible for what they do or what they have chosen not to do. 26:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Archbishop glory and other clerks need to be held to the same laws that lay people are held to. 26:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And every lay person knows that certain actions like sexually abusing a child and or covering that crime up will not be excused with quote sincere apologies and quote as Lori seems to think. 26:38 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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