0:08 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching. 0:42 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know, in memory of Kathy Seznick, 1942 to 1969? 0:52 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know if it weren't for her, I wouldn't be here? 0:59 [SPEAKER_03]: If she had stayed quiet, I wouldn't be here. 1:03 [SPEAKER_03]: If she intended to leave me in the dark, I wouldn't be here. 1:08 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted her to leave me alone. 1:11 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted her to mind her own business. 1:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted her to save me. 1:17 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know I was for business? 1:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Two intense after she left, they were so afraid of the light, stomped out every member. 1:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing left to do, go deep, deep, deep within. 1:31 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know the depths would save me? 1:36 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know if it weren't for her? 1:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't be here. 1:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey everybody, it's really fun to be back with Shane of course. 2:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Our guest today is somebody that you all know and are so thrilled to have her back again, we are talking to Jean Wainer today and she has brought her guests so I'm going to let Jean invite her guest. 2:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm going to ask her guest to tell us a little bit about himself. 2:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Gemma. 2:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Shane. 2:20 [SPEAKER_03]: It is good to be back. 2:21 [SPEAKER_03]: I believe I've been on three different times. 2:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And Dr. Ellen Lackger has become a tremendous support to the trauma that I've experienced and how she's been able to use my book and able to help others. 2:38 [SPEAKER_03]: The activist that she is for the ritualistic sexual abuse. 2:42 [SPEAKER_03]: All of that to say the person who I'm bringing with me today is Ed is my brother he is a Irish twin I couldn't have done what I've done with any of the other. 2:59 [SPEAKER_03]: six brothers. 3:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Ed, we have some kind of sympathico. 3:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I feel like he has truly been the gift that's helped me get this project to its completion. 3:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Jean. 3:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I am the next youngest brother to Jean. 3:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I see indicated one of seven boys and have been supporting her, listening to her, working with her, as a support 3:29 [SPEAKER_01]: 1992 when she began remembering, and even before that, when we discovered from her or that our great uncle had been abusing her. 3:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So this was a path that the family was taking with her. 3:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a very unique path, but at the same time, we all in our own way supported her. 3:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I at the time, through all of that, was employed as a judge, I'm an ex-judged at this point in time. 3:59 [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to have retired time that she began writing, we'll talk about the book that she just came out with, and have worked pretty closely with her. 4:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I was seen editor of the book and learned so much and also myself, just grew immensely as a result of editing this book. 4:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's who I am in a nutshell. 4:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Jane with the first question I wanted to ask, you shared in the keyfers that in 1992, that for the first time you began remembering being sexually abused at Kia High School like Urgi and others. 4:35 [SPEAKER_00]: What or who helped you get through once you began remembering? 4:40 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a good question. 4:41 [SPEAKER_03]: When I began remembering, I already had some of those what's or who's in place, which was I believe the reason that I could begin remembering, there's who categories one is humans, the other is my inner journey companions, the makings of. 5:01 [SPEAKER_03]: the healing process. 5:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so in the human element, it was therapists and spiritual counselors, prayer partners, movement therapists, massage therapists, friends and family. 5:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I say it as if there were a ton of people. 5:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I could let very few people near me. 5:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I had a very specific group of people. 5:25 [SPEAKER_03]: But when I say family and friends, they were more spiritual kind of moral supporters. 5:32 [SPEAKER_03]: I could not have done anything without these people in my life. 5:39 [SPEAKER_03]: The reason I began remembering is because as a spiritual director, I already had some of those people in place. 5:48 [SPEAKER_03]: All of that became foundation. 5:53 [SPEAKER_03]: and they just continued as I began with them. 5:57 [SPEAKER_03]: I also feel that the tools like journaling, doing my prayer or meditation, these were all things that I was already doing. 6:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So those tools were already because I was a spiritual director, that's the tools I was taught for four years to use with others when they're spiritual journey. 6:23 [SPEAKER_03]: supports I would say would be spiritual guides along the way of this process, the journey that I write about. 6:32 [SPEAKER_03]: I became spontaneously aware of whether it was an owl or a snake. 6:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus or Kathy says, Nick, there there became this movement beyond my thinking it through that seem to just come 6:49 [SPEAKER_03]: naturally, organically. 6:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Another kind of part of the process that I know I couldn't done anything without where the personas, those aspects of myself that as trauma happened, I fragmented. 7:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And the more intense it became, the more let's say dissociated or severed those personas, those parts of maybe came. 7:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And they held a lot of that trauma, a lot of particular experiences. 7:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And as I began the journey in 1992 to find myself 7:31 [SPEAKER_03]: and integrate myself back into who I was. 7:36 [SPEAKER_03]: These personas became very important, and they also became an eye opener for me that I was much more than I had ever thought it was. 7:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And I couldn't have survived without these aspects of myself holding this pain and suffering until I could handle or deal with it. 8:00 [SPEAKER_00]: What has life been like for you since the key preserved five years ago with the keeper stood for me as it accelerated my healing. 8:09 [SPEAKER_03]: So after the lawsuit, which I believe was the appeals was I think 1997 the Maryland suit was I believe 1995 the so when the church did what they did to silence me with the courts. 8:25 [SPEAKER_03]: My healing process went into a backseat slow mo. 8:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Still moving, but not at all that movement that could have happened. 8:37 [SPEAKER_03]: When the keepers came out, I had an acceleration of that healing. 8:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that year after it came out, I went off the grid, no contact information. 8:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a practitioner of rakey reflexology. 8:51 [SPEAKER_03]: No one could find me. 8:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I had no information on any of the, I called every, 8:56 [SPEAKER_03]: membership that I had and got off of them. 9:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I was afraid people were going to come and throw eggs. 9:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I really believed that there was going to be this horrible reaction equal to what I had been told that they were all going to say I was lying and that I was making it up, then I was 9:25 [SPEAKER_03]: what was I still about? 9:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was the psychological and spiritual journey that I had been one simultaneously, but could not talk about, didn't even have the language for. 9:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought that's what it is. 9:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So then we ended up having the gathering, whether that was with family or friends, 9:49 [SPEAKER_03]: But it was really for me it was writing the book for three and a half years was what I did next. 9:55 [SPEAKER_03]: It was very private so I could still keep my private I did interviews I did talks. 10:01 [SPEAKER_03]: but this became the focus. 10:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I had something to say, I knew it after the courts and with the support of others, I was finally able to do that until now. 10:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Jean, we're going to get into the meat of the discussion. 10:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You recently published your second book and we're going to come back to the First Man a minute, walking with Alethian. 10:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So the first part of this question is for you, what's the significance of the title and why did you decide to write the book? 10:30 [SPEAKER_03]: The significance of the title started with my son after the filming was complete. 10:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually write about it and he puts his version in the book, it's the gift of Elitia and that's chapter 17. 10:45 [SPEAKER_03]: In the audiobook, he actually reads his part. 10:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So it was one of those moments. 10:51 [SPEAKER_03]: He had carved a structure. 10:53 [SPEAKER_03]: We sat here at my dining table and he was presenting it 11:00 [SPEAKER_03]: who were the crew for the keepers, as you guys know. 11:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was just listening. 11:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I was amazed at what he had done, and he began to explain who Oletia was, and why he chose Oletia, and that she's the goddess of truth. 11:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And as he spoke, I knew that I was being, again, in that whole idea of psychological and spiritual movement, I knew I was being introduced to someone that was very important in my process. 11:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Didn't know why I didn't, I just feel it. 11:37 [SPEAKER_03]: So for me, the idea of what is in this book is about truth. 11:44 [SPEAKER_03]: It's about speaking our own personal truth and trusting it no matter if anyone else believes it or not. 11:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And that seems to be what my journey has been a lot about, but that to me as a big part, my son Gray carving this structure, this carving presented it as gift to them 12:07 [UNKNOWN]: You 12:07 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the 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today. 13:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Alethia's symbol, a similar to a mascot for other goddesses, is the mirror. 13:20 [SPEAKER_03]: She holds it outward for those who look to just see the truth. 13:24 [SPEAKER_03]: It reflects back to them. 13:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Throughout my health walk, others continually reflected what they saw in me back to me. 13:34 [SPEAKER_03]: That one going in an action by itself. 13:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to say it was a parable healing tool for me. 13:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to cover that expressed my journey with truth. 13:46 [SPEAKER_03]: My inner journey with truth, my live experience with truth. 13:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I also wanted a modern picture of me as the adult, looking into the mirror of truth and finding the child within. 14:01 [SPEAKER_03]: which was me. 14:02 [SPEAKER_03]: The designer of the book picked this Persian rug and these Persian rugs always had a prayer rug that went with them. 14:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And she picked this because she felt very much like the truth is often kicked under the rug that what the archdiocese, what the police department, what the courts want to do is just kick it under the rug. 14:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And yet what she felt with the Persian rug is there's a prayer rug. 14:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And that prayer rug in the center of all that crap being pushed under the bigger rug is where that got to come up and out. 14:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So they thought they were hiding it under the rug and the little prayer rug in the middle because of the meditation and the quiet and of the reflecting. 14:59 [SPEAKER_03]: brought it all up, still out of the rug, but out of the prayer rug. 15:04 [SPEAKER_03]: So I just thought her thoughtfulness in figuring out what to put and how it connected with my journey was pretty, pretty one target. 15:19 [SPEAKER_02]: You alluded to this a minute ago, you said that you knew you had something to say after the courts was that what motivated you to begin to put it down on paper in the form of a book. 15:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I had actually tried to other times I sat with my sister and my friend Barbara Brunk and we did tapes we were I worked with Tom one time and he was going to write a book that was right after the final appeal. 15:47 [SPEAKER_03]: and tell you the truth, I was too terrified. 15:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Now that everyone had closed it all up, I really felt like I was seen as a liar. 15:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Tom and I went so far and both of us knew we couldn't go any further. 16:01 [SPEAKER_03]: So there were like three times that I tried to write that spiritual psychological movement that I was so aware was going on separate from the physical and 16:14 [SPEAKER_03]: That was the start of it was after the courts when I knew I wasn't done. 16:20 [SPEAKER_03]: It's always that feeling like am I done and I knew it wasn't done and that's one of the big things I wasn't done with. 16:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I had to share that process. 16:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to turn to you now. 16:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have a favorite part of the book and why is there a section that speaks to you the most? 16:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess if you're speaking of a chapter. 16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of editing it, and this process, I'll give you an idea of how we work together. 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Jean would just put things on. 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And would give me what it was, perversion of what it was. 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I would, I guess this is the same process most editors do. 17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I would look at it, I would try to maybe sometimes reorganize if most of the time not do that, but through some words, smithing, try to make things maybe simpler. 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember getting lantern in the bow and just being blown away. 17:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an incredible five pages. 17:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It's only five pages. 17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it's so succinctly dealt with what her life has been like in terms of the growth from the terror that she was feeling and in the chapter talks about the wise old woman who is on the cross who is taken from the cross but is whaling at agony. 17:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet at the same time, both has the realization of the sadness, incredible sadness of what's happened. 17:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet at the same time has the wisdom to be able to see the bigger picture. 17:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And you have two figures in that chapter. 18:00 [SPEAKER_01]: One is the very young child who was hidden away in order to protect that course of goodness. 18:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have the wise old woman who has seen what has happened to that particular human being by these monsters and that is all in one chapter and her journey through the bowels it's through the shit of what she had to deal with her life and it had to bottom of the bowels. 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: is again, this young girl who still is holds the goodness of who she is. 18:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It has tattered, but there's more. 18:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It has her relationship with Jesus. 18:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It's summarized in such a clear way of having come from a relationship with Jesus as God or the Son of God and a spiritual friend by the end of the chapter making a contract with Him like 19:03 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, it looks like I don't have any choice, but to keep you in my life, but if I'm going to do this, don't expect me to accept whatever is you tell me without asking questions, so there's that maturity of we're not going down this road again, and I think all of those things combined together, as I said, I just like my mouth to hung open like this is such an incredible piece of writing and so that's my favorite. 19:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I bought the paperback and then I actually bought the audible because I like to listen to books and I knew that you had narrated it yourself. 19:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought both were powerful, but I'm so glad that I got the audible because I was able to hear your family and there was something different about listening to you tell your story. 19:53 [SPEAKER_02]: The writing was impeccable, but the verbal part, 19:58 [SPEAKER_02]: struck, just hit me in the heart. 20:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So what was your favorite chapter of the book? 20:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say it was birth of a warrior, chapter 24. 20:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And the reason I would say that is that I'm not just writing a story. 20:13 [SPEAKER_03]: This all came out of journals. 20:16 [SPEAKER_03]: The experiences were lived. 20:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So not just the experience of back then. 20:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I do know that the fact that I could steal that I had felt like my spirit have been killed for a number of years that it was dead. 20:43 [SPEAKER_03]: I knew it as an adult. 20:44 [SPEAKER_03]: I just felt as I began remembering and understanding I understood why. 20:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And in that meditation that when I went on and goes on, I felt 20:57 [SPEAKER_03]: the pure devastation. 21:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I felt me on that floor. 21:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I was on that floor as Francis that persona. 21:08 [SPEAKER_03]: I was done. 21:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So when this 21:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Warrior came up. 21:15 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm still amazed. 21:17 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm still in awe of what can happen. 21:21 [SPEAKER_03]: She just came up in order and I part of me is I wanted to be her. 21:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not even related. 21:28 [SPEAKER_03]: It took a lot of work to realize I am her. 21:32 [SPEAKER_03]: That came from me. 21:33 [SPEAKER_03]: That was the big final. 21:40 [SPEAKER_03]: If I'm going to get out of here, I'm going to have to do exactly what I'm told. 21:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't even care what it is anymore. 21:50 [SPEAKER_03]: But I am not going to end up just staying on this floor dead. 21:57 [SPEAKER_03]: You will not kill me. 21:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I don't even pretend that I knew any of that as it unfolded. 22:03 [SPEAKER_03]: It has been years of coming to understand it. 22:10 [SPEAKER_03]: It still makes me cry because I can feel. 22:13 [SPEAKER_03]: It's present so myself come up and just say, you're not going to take a snail, you're just not going to take a snail. 22:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what I'm going to do, but you will not destroy me. 22:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I think what you just shared is. 22:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So poignant, because people get it, people that have been through something some trauma get it when that warrior. 22:46 [SPEAKER_02]: inside. 22:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the core of what we are, whether it's an illness or a loss or an wrong from somebody else. 22:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the way we're made is that there's that nugget inside that's not going to give up. 23:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And there you were. 23:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's one other emotion that always comes with this. 23:06 [SPEAKER_03]: and I have to continually deal with it. 23:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Why that didn't happen for others. 23:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Really does blow my mind. 23:14 [SPEAKER_03]: It makes me a bit crazy. 23:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Why others? 23:20 [SPEAKER_03]: didn't have that within them. 23:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't understand because I am always aware that I could be dead right now. 23:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always aware that I would be dead right now. 23:33 [SPEAKER_03]: If certain things didn't happen, and this was one of those things. 23:37 [SPEAKER_03]: So I do always have such a heavy heart for those who couldn't or didn't, for whatever, I can't even explain it. 23:45 [SPEAKER_03]: but it does still hurt my heart to think, why me? 23:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Why me? 23:49 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no different than any of the other women, the ones who are still hiding. 23:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm no different. 23:56 [SPEAKER_03]: It may be heavy. 23:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's you because you were chosen to do this job. 24:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a bigger conversation. 24:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I know. 24:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I can talk about that in the last quarter of my life is about 24:15 [SPEAKER_02]: this journey. 24:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I would like to jump in here at one point and note that Jean does both in her first book, but also in this book does quote to my Angela piece about the surrender is as honorable as fighting, especially at one has no choice one of the things that I would. 24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: common one, and Gina, I hope you can tell me what I'm right at wrong, is that a rising of the warrior was just the idea of this is a point of surrendering in some ways to what they're doing. 24:50 [SPEAKER_01]: 100% but it is the only honorable thing to do in this situation. 24:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Because what happened is that warrior became my worst enemy, that warrior was the 25:07 [SPEAKER_03]: what I despised most about myself in order to survive and get out of there. 25:14 [SPEAKER_03]: So it became a two-edged sword. 25:16 [SPEAKER_03]: It became one of the hardest parts of myself to at some point begin to interact with. 25:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You both have mentioned a couple times jeans first book, which I have for copy of back when we did our first podcast episode together. 25:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Some listeners may now know what we're talking about, but a while back you released a first book called Conversations with myself. 25:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you explain to us what the difference between that book and this book is? 25:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you both could give us what your favorite poem is from that book. 25:48 [SPEAKER_03]: The difference is that conversations with myself is there was a particular way that I wrote after the courts said give us your journals or basically this is going to come to some kind of stop or slow or no, but nothing I began writing in this kind of more poem form after the keepers came out I was going to put them up on my web page. 26:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And my sister Cass and my daughter Sarah said, don't do that. 26:20 [SPEAKER_03]: People will start cutting and pasting and saying theirs. 26:23 [SPEAKER_03]: We think you should do a book. 26:26 [SPEAKER_03]: So I thought there's that's the last thing in the world. 26:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I have energy for nor do I know what to do. 26:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And Tom Nugin's wife, Amy Nugin, said she would help me. 26:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so she began to help me put together this little book, 26:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And next thing, it went out, I published self-published. 26:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And I call it conversations with myself. 26:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And I use the capital M, my and a capital S, because the self is that core, it's where we connect somewhere within all what we are. 27:05 [SPEAKER_03]: So the conversations were with the bigger self, beyond what I knew what I understood. 27:11 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's leaving this open kind of connection to allow that. 27:17 [SPEAKER_03]: dialogue, that conversation, that connection, and then to discern it after the fact with those you trust. 27:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what this book was about. 27:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Conversations with myself. 27:31 [SPEAKER_03]: A walking with Alicia was, it was a mess like I took all my journals and all the things that had happened. 27:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And walking with Alicia is a master journal. 27:43 [SPEAKER_03]: It became everything in a fine-tune integrated way. 27:49 [SPEAKER_03]: It was one of the most healing parts of my process. 27:53 [SPEAKER_03]: How do you talk about spirituality and psychological working of the brain while you're talking about things that are happening in the body, this body mind and spirit? 28:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So that, that's the difference. 28:08 [SPEAKER_03]: This is one particular time I was doing writing. 28:10 [SPEAKER_03]: I was doing a writing sobattle. 28:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And I sat down and said, OK, I'm going to get this time to write. 28:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And I didn't want to journal the way I used to. 28:21 [SPEAKER_03]: So it became pretty impressive conversations with these younger aspects of myself. 28:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And what I'd like to do, 28:32 [SPEAKER_03]: is read to you if you don't mind one paragraph at the beginning of the book. 28:40 [SPEAKER_03]: These pure conversations with my team self can be disturbingly roll and painful to read. 28:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel that when I read them. 28:51 [SPEAKER_03]: I, however, was deeply changed, touching the depth of pain and suffering. 28:57 [SPEAKER_03]: My younger self was sharing with me. 28:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a level of feeling I have been afraid to enter into. 29:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I could not separate my teen self from my present self in that horrible pain. 29:10 [SPEAKER_03]: There was no room for pretense. 29:12 [SPEAKER_03]: She was me. 29:14 [SPEAKER_03]: it will be impossible for me to ever again diminish the dehumanizing torturous raping of my body mind and spirit by others. 29:27 [SPEAKER_03]: These poems were literally conversations with parts of me like throwing up memories. 29:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I was throwing up memories to these poems. 29:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So they were impacted me as I was telling them to myself. 29:48 [SPEAKER_03]: The poem that still strikes me, makes me think, makes me feel, how was I to know, in memory of Kathy Césnick, 1942 to 1969? 30:03 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know if it weren't for her, I wouldn't be here? 30:11 [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't be here. 30:13 [SPEAKER_03]: If she intended to leave me in the dark, I wouldn't be here. 30:19 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted her to leave me alone. 30:21 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted her to mind her own business. 30:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted her to save me. 30:27 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know I was her business? 30:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Two intense after she left, they were so afraid of the light, stomped out every member. 30:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing left to do, go deep, deep, deep within. 30:41 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know the depth would save me? 30:46 [SPEAKER_03]: How was I to know if it weren't for her? 30:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't be here. 30:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess picking up with relationship with Kathy. 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: She wrote a poem, I guess it was early on when she began to feel that Kathy was reaching out 31:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the same way, the gene consistently says, how she's not done, the message that she was getting from Kathy is, I'm not done and you're not done. 31:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm going to read a passage. 31:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I will get to the film, but I wanted to put it in context. 31:25 [SPEAKER_01]: This poem appears also in the book. 31:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So I will read a paragraph before I actually read the poem itself. 31:34 [SPEAKER_01]: In 2009, I decided my writing would be focused on connecting with Kathy. 31:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Once I began journaling, I had a clear and direct dialogue with the younger aspects of myself who experienced the abuse and high school. 31:49 [SPEAKER_01]: This was surprising and emotionally stirring. 31:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I was the adult, bumping and listening to myself as a girl as young as 14. 31:57 [SPEAKER_01]: The words flowed until I knew we were finished with dialogue. 32:01 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, the young aspects of myself were dialogueing and struggling with each other as they talk these issues through. 32:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that times, and I was the adult, I as the adult was the participant, and at other times I was the facilitator. 32:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it was, I just kept moving with it. 32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: The talking was more akin to poetry than prose. 32:23 [SPEAKER_01]: A young persona wrote through me in late 2009, 32:30 [SPEAKER_01]: this is the palm eyes of Jolly. 32:33 [SPEAKER_01]: As I said by the chair, I look with eyes that do not see. 32:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I have fooled them again. 32:39 [SPEAKER_01]: They think they are looking at me. 32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Little do they know, I'm not even here. 32:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I've left quite some time ago. 32:49 [SPEAKER_01]: My eyes are just empty poles of Jolly, trying not to be found out. 32:54 [SPEAKER_01]: If they knew, they would eat them too. 33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I think everybody would agree with us that what you both chose is so thought provoking, they're gonna take that away with them. 33:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And since Ed shared what his part of the that book was, can you each talk about how the rest of your family has been involved in both or either book? 33:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I think everybody knows you have a very large supportive family, 33:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And they also how you all pitched in together in the keepers to make some things have what were some of the roles that other members of your family played, Jean, you want to go first I again, I'm very private as you both know, but I'm also an introvert and this is not topic that one wants to be chatting about so it's not something that all of my family were called into be a part of. 33:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Only certain people and it was certain family or friends mainly a lot of therapy work or spiritual guidance and help, but I think that I think for me it's like. 34:11 [SPEAKER_03]: That is a given that to me as the family without their support. 34:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Without my sister being available for me to call her and talk about what just one went. 34:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Without me being able to call Mike and say I'm rolled up on the floor, I just had this horrible thing happen to me. 34:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm a grown woman and it's because I remembered something. 34:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I tend to remember things when nobody's around because it's very vulnerable place to be. 34:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And you don't want anybody to be around when you're that vulnerable because you saw what happened. 34:45 [SPEAKER_03]: When you were that when it came to this book became really I'm a lot healthier and being a lot healthier I don't need all those people to shore me up in the way I needed to before and I'm a lot more accepting of the fact that I am an introvert I'm a lot more accepting of the fact that I am private. 35:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a lot more accepting of the fact that I 35:08 [SPEAKER_03]: that this is a very difficult subject to talk about. 35:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't want to just talk about it willy-nilly with anybody in every what. 35:17 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm very aware that it can be very triggering and very upsetting to many people and I'm very sensitive to that. 35:24 [SPEAKER_03]: So once the decision was made that there would be this process of writing and Ed said, I'm retired. 35:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I would like to help 35:37 [SPEAKER_03]: He's been to boots on the ground a lot of it. 35:39 [SPEAKER_03]: He's been not just my support as a brother who I know understands a lot of things that are going with us as siblings. 35:48 [SPEAKER_03]: He has been the editor. 35:49 [SPEAKER_03]: He has been the agent. 35:51 [SPEAKER_03]: He has been the, not a very good assistant, but he's trying to, 35:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I need to be fired. 36:01 [SPEAKER_03]: No, that's why I haven't paid anything yet. 36:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm waiting for that assistant to show up and you get just a whole back of me, but I'm not real happy with that part, but there are other things I'm pretty happy with. 36:15 [SPEAKER_03]: But with that, I would say. 36:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sure what I have to put up with. 36:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, my god, I have to tell you. 36:28 [SPEAKER_03]: There would do this editing. 36:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And it would be like sometimes it would be like he would pick because he's got a much bigger vocabulary than me. 36:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so at certain times he would say, have that this word. 36:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'd say, 36:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And I have to be able to pronounce it if I'm going to pretend that ain't from me. 36:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And he'd be like, this is how you pronounce it. 36:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, I still can't pronounce it. 36:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And I got to look it up in a dictionary. 36:55 [SPEAKER_03]: So we are at a quite a few times where we struggled, but there were probably I can think of two in particular, where I was pissed. 37:05 [SPEAKER_03]: I was pissed and I was yelling at him. 37:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was like, 37:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to get off the phone now. 37:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And I knew. 37:12 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, please, what a stop. 37:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I pushed him too far. 37:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm calling and I'm like, hey, are you there? 37:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really sorry. 37:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't mean that. 37:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm telling you, this guy's put up with a lot. 37:26 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's why I think he's because he does know how to not take it personal, not take it serious, not have to 37:36 [SPEAKER_03]: His nose is about helping me get through to the next thing, and that's what a good editor, I think, really does. 37:44 [SPEAKER_03]: So that, but I do think that I can't not say that everyone that loves me and knows me, family friends, this has been writing that I know has been short up by their love, their support. 37:57 [SPEAKER_03]: their good thoughts, their prayers. 38:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel that there's a focus group I need to say it was family and friends that we called together at the beginning and sat in a room and asked, do you think anyone would be interested in a book written by me about this more personal healing journey? 38:17 [SPEAKER_03]: and all of them for different reasons said they did think it would be. 38:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Then I also know that another group were readers. 38:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I had readers that would read and they were given three questions and each separately. 38:32 [SPEAKER_03]: This before it came out that they would answer the questions and we then would do a zoom with each one. 38:37 [SPEAKER_03]: to see what the answers to the questions were. 38:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Then we had, I had one that was in my nephew. 38:43 [SPEAKER_03]: I have a lot of nieces and nephews with a big family and I was always so sensitive that I was going to upset all these people because I do talk about my family and that's one of the reasons I couldn't ever write before because I didn't want to talk about my family when my family wasn't sitting there to say they don't agree or they don't believe it. 39:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't 39:05 [SPEAKER_03]: causing them any disruption in their own self. 39:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I had my nephew asked him, he said, yes, he talked to Ed and Val, it's their son. 39:15 [SPEAKER_03]: So he knew he could talk to them and he read it. 39:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And I wanted to know, did he feel that the other nieces and nephews would understand it or would it be too painful for them? 39:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And my nephew said, Alex said, not just, oh no, they would be fine with this. 39:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I will be a pivotal point for them. 39:36 [SPEAKER_03]: If anyone needs to talk, they can talk to me. 39:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And so instead of sending out a big email saying, oh my god, everybody's going to be okay with this. 39:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I took his word for it. 39:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And as a reader, he became someone that was extremely important to the process. 39:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So interesting, had no idea 39:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Ed, do you want to get back at her or do you want to give your perspective on how the family works? 40:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you all were involved. 40:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if this was the Jerry Springer podcast. 40:06 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I would like to say that I thought that the family, even though everybody was not involved, particularly in the meat of what was in the book, there was always a sentiment of support. 40:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go all the way back to the very first time that we, 40:23 [SPEAKER_01]: had discussed having the book written. 40:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But our dad had some reservations about doing a book. 40:28 [SPEAKER_01]: This was back in 1997 or eight. 40:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But to a person, every one of the siblings said yes. 40:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And he could fast forward to 2018 with some family members, but also close friends coming together 40:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And there wasn't one dissent in the whole group. 40:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And these are honest people. 40:50 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to hold back your faith. 40:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Think that particularly out of concern for genes, well, I think that there's always been a concern with my dad. 40:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, at the time when he originally disagree with it, he just thought, this is going to be very hard to be coming, yeah, public with this. 41:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that to a person with my parents, with my siblings, it's always been like, gene, how is this going to benefit you? 41:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And how could it hurt me? 41:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's been an important role for the family. 41:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, whether intuitively we knew the strength that she had in herself or for whatever reason, we all to a person said, you've got to do this. 41:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Even though part of the book is about some very unsingely things that happened within our extended family by my uncle. 41:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And who wants to talk about that? 41:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's the truth. 41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's Alethia. 41:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So fortunate that you all have a safe place to land with each other. 41:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Jean, what did you want readers to take away from your park? 41:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And what was your message when you wrote it? 41:52 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the more important things is that we all survive traumatic events differently. 41:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And we heal from those experiences differently. 42:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I am just sharing my process in a way that I have come to do. 42:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Me, I think it's the messages, find someone that you can trust and explore what works for you. 42:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I have a number of things that I feel when I think through the book that I have made away. 42:26 [SPEAKER_03]: that we are not responsible for other people's actions. 42:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It's very important that especially people who have been or are being sexually abused, that we're not the blame for what others made us do. 42:44 [SPEAKER_03]: These are very hard things to accept and nice to struggle with it, but if you can find someone that you can trust and confide in, that you can start saying it out loud and start hearing the non-sensical words that are coming out your mouth, it is okay to work on personal boundaries to say no. 43:07 [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know how to do that as survivors. 43:09 [SPEAKER_03]: We know how to survive. 43:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of times that means we'll do whatever in the world anybody in the room needs us to be do just as long as we can survive any kind of situation. 43:38 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think what I hope any, any one of any type of trauma that you're not alone. 43:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And there are many folks hoping to help you when your own personal health walk. 43:55 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just trying to take that little step into figuring out what that means for you. 44:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I have had to learn that from Eugene. 44:05 [SPEAKER_02]: that I have to take my direction from survivors, because I'm not. 44:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was so important and critical to me to learn from your signs, you Teresa, Donna, everybody that I've met to just be sensitive and be a sponge, because we have to learn from each of you the best way to support you and to make you as comfortable as possible. 44:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was tricky. 44:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And you and I talked a little bit about this before and I remember you said it took you a while to trust me and I so appreciate you saying that because I understand that nickel because I'm like this but I have some emotional divorce from what happened to all of you because it didn't happen to me and I need to learn so much from that so I want to thank you for being you and for giving me some direction. 45:00 [SPEAKER_02]: because it's really important that you keep doing that. 45:02 [SPEAKER_02]: But on another note, tell us how your book's been received by the public. 45:07 [SPEAKER_03]: It's been interesting. 45:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I started out with a real fear that people wouldn't understand it, that they would come away thinking I was nutty, that it would take away from the truth that I have been speaking. 45:22 [SPEAKER_03]: because what I have been speaking as happens a lot with survivors, there's nobody to attest to it. 45:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It is being in a room by yourself with all the horror that's going on for, is being sitting next to someone and a hand goes on their lap. 45:40 [SPEAKER_03]: You're by yourself, that's what predators do. 45:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Purpose Raiders. 45:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So I've already said so much that I've been amazed that people believe me and then people affirmed it by showing up and there's no questioning it now. 45:57 [SPEAKER_03]: But this felt, oh God, I'm gonna be really considered the goofball. 46:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's very important to me to have a psychologist or trauma experts read my book, not knowing what they would say. 46:12 [SPEAKER_03]: But anybody who said something that we would find out where it and we would send them a request well written out if you go to my website and there are at least five to six trauma specialist or psychologists who read the book and legitimized me by talking about how trauma impacts on an individual and so the more I got that response before the book went out the more I 46:42 [SPEAKER_03]: could breathe and that I could feel like people can say anything they want, what the experts that I value are saying. 46:54 [SPEAKER_03]: This is what happens to a person who's experienced trauma. 47:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm actually hearing how therapists are using the book with their patients and how breakthroughs are happening. 47:10 [SPEAKER_03]: This is awesome. 47:12 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a dream come true. 47:15 [SPEAKER_03]: This is what I hoped would happen. 47:17 [SPEAKER_03]: After MacQ did his number in all of the ways that he dished the dissociative disorders, repression of memory, whatever we want to label, these doctors are all out there still. 47:31 [SPEAKER_03]: He can be a retired, he could die. 47:33 [SPEAKER_03]: But there's an awful lot of doctors out there who Psychologists who have been taught by him to know that. 47:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And then to hear these therapists say they're using. 47:45 [SPEAKER_03]: what I hoped would be an affirmation to them and a source of support and a tool that they're using it, I couldn't be happier. 47:55 [SPEAKER_03]: That's just one of those that I hope to support it. 48:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Those therapists. 48:04 [SPEAKER_00]: In the month of July, Gene has two book events scheduled so far. 48:08 [SPEAKER_00]: The first is on Sunday, July 10th at 2 p.m. At the Barnes & Noble's, Elocat City. 48:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Located in the Long Gate Shopping Center in Elocat City, Maryland, the second is on Thursday, July 21st at 6 p.m. at the Ivy Book Shop in Baltimore, Maryland. 48:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You can visit Gene's website to stay up to date and order her books. 48:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It is GeneWainerCoach.com. 48:30 [SPEAKER_00]: J-E-A-N-W-E-H-N-E-R-C-O-A-C-H.com. 48:37 [SPEAKER_00]: The link is also in the show notes. 48:40 [SPEAKER_03]: When I do the events, what I end up doing, we start off with a list of questions and we have a moderator. 48:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Someone is moderating. 48:49 [SPEAKER_03]: They will ask the questions are basic questions. 48:52 [SPEAKER_03]: So if someone hasn't read the book, they get an idea. 48:55 [SPEAKER_03]: then someone's handing out cards. 48:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have people just call out questions because I'm very concerned someone's going to say something that might either be triggering or upsetting and this isn't the place nor the time in my mind for that. 49:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So people can write their questions down while they're doing that I read a chapter of the after I read a chapter of the book we 49:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we have the questions or read by somebody and they will then pass them to the moderator who's asked the questions. 49:33 [SPEAKER_03]: After that, we ask who here needs to get the book sign real quick and get out of here and that's what they do and then others who want to say a little something while I'm signing the books will come after that. 49:51 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we try and we've slowly gotten better at how to get it so that it's as smooth as possible and it doesn't hold people up as much as it could. 50:02 [SPEAKER_02]: For folks that will not be able to see you in person, unfortunately, where can they get your books, books plural and in order to get a book signed what would be the process. 50:17 [SPEAKER_01]: There are several places to purchase the books and what is on James website jingwainercoach.com also i'm is on obviously Barnes and Noble sells the book and also from the publisher of Douglas the fieldbooks.com reader can purchase the person can purchase that the books many of those. 50:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Book events again would be on the website on the walking with Alicia 50:42 [SPEAKER_01]: at gmail.com and that's also where is someone wants to have a book signed by Jean, they can just make the request on that email address rather than walking with a VP at gmail.com and there's a process she has for communicating with the person, getting the payment for the mailing it out to them after she signs it. 51:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, obviously, if you want you come to the event, 51:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Now bring that your book and that's the case that you already got it. 51:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Walking with Alithia is also available as an audio book on Audible. 51:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Gene narrates it herself and I must say it is a must listen to even if you've already read the physical book. 51:25 [SPEAKER_00]: If you go to audible.com, just search for walking with Alithia in the search bar to find the book. 51:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's spelled ALE, TH, EIA. 51:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You can also search for Gene Wainer, J-E-A-N, W-E-H, N-E-R, a direct link to the audio 51:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Gene, one advice to you have for survivors of any kind of childhood abuse, as well as advice for their family members. 51:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's pretty simple. 51:54 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that first and foremost, I want to say that it is still happening. 51:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Just because there are a number of older survivors who are able to talk about it for their reasons. 52:07 [SPEAKER_03]: we are survivors supporting survivors. 52:10 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's really important to understand that I do this because I was a child and nobody did anything or knew. 52:18 [SPEAKER_03]: One or the other. 52:21 [SPEAKER_03]: There are still children being sexually abused. 52:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Purpose traders have gotten better at hiding it. 52:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Those who are the umbrellas for those perpetrators have become more savvy with what they got to present and are still keeping things close to the chest. 52:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I would say my advice is that, first and foremost, 52:50 [SPEAKER_03]: to talk about these things that are so terribly difficult to talk about. 52:54 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how, but it's shared in some way, shape, or theme. 53:00 [SPEAKER_03]: The last that I had read is, people are usually 52 when they start to talk about it. 53:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Think about it, 52. 53:08 [SPEAKER_03]: So if we don't as 52, 60, 69 year old survivors, 53:14 [SPEAKER_03]: talking some way publicly about this, those children who are being abused. 53:21 [SPEAKER_03]: They don't get to hear elders say that this stuff happens 53:56 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching this video, thank you for watching 54:32 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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