0:08 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching. 0:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Earlier in the podcast, Sean King agreed to allow me to interview him for the podcast. 0:32 [SPEAKER_00]: First off, it's a very upsetting interview. 0:34 [SPEAKER_00]: His phone rings about every five seconds. 0:37 [SPEAKER_00]: He says almost every other word. 0:39 [SPEAKER_00]: He sounds like an attorney, which he is, with the Archdiocese. 0:44 [SPEAKER_00]: But he said some things that was very surprising, I think that when you listen, you'll be upset and you'll also be surprised. 0:53 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that he said to me, when I asked him if they monitored where the abusing priests who mind you are credibly accused of abuse. 1:05 [SPEAKER_00]: If he monitors where they go to live because we are well aware of some abuser priests who have been incredibly accused and I will also add that he informed me that to be incredibly accused, there are bishop would be the one that is the deciding person he is the judge on if the abuse allegations is enough to consider him. 1:29 [SPEAKER_00]: the priest credibly accused, but nonetheless, Sean informed me that they do not monitor where they go to live. 1:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So basically he said, if they are credibly accused, they are removed from the church, they're not allowed to say mass, be a priest and schools, whatever. 1:48 [SPEAKER_00]: However, the church still does pay them, and they can go live out in these retirement facilities. 1:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't know if you've ever been to a retirement facility, I have, I have, I have family members who are in them, and I've actually been to one where I came across the priest, and at the time, I remember thinking, oh, that's so good that there's a priest at this place, 2:14 [SPEAKER_00]: want to come in contact with a fully person. 2:16 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really nice to have. 2:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But then when he told me that I immediately flashed back to that moment when I was 12 and I met that priest at that retirement facility in Indiana, mind you. 2:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought he could have been an abuser priest. 2:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't have known that as a child. 2:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And even as an adult, that wouldn't have been shared because ultimately the system that they have 2:41 [SPEAKER_00]: to live outside of the law, so there's no system that monitors where they're being called and where they're living. 2:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So I asked Sean, he told me that he was a father, how he felt about that, and he said that he felt that the catholic church priest of using children is comparable to home depot employees. 3:01 [SPEAKER_00]: abusing children. 3:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that I've learned working on this case specifically is that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, um, Catholics are taught the only way to heaven is through the church. 3:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So in that aspect, I don't see how he could have prepared Catholic priests abusing children to home depot employees abusing children. 3:23 [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts on that 3:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems clear to me, at this point, after 20 years of working on this story, the real reason for electricity and for denying the priest of the Roman Catholic Church any outlet for their sexual energy has nothing whatsoever to do with morality, or whether or not sex is been poll and it's terrible to break this command on whatever and isn't it? 3:49 [SPEAKER_01]: shame. 3:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It has to do with property. 3:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Think it through, please, would make for a moment. 3:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'm not the first to say this, but if you demand that your priest can never marry, all inheritance goes back to the church. 4:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And by doing this for centuries, why didn't you get the house and the car, and the savings account, and all the rest that most of us struggle for in our lives? 4:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It all went back to Rome, and so the electricity has become over centuries. 4:24 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why the most powerful wealthy organization on the planet. 4:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Celebrity is a corporate tool that allows them to make sure that they keep all of the money. 4:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And in order to have that money, they knowingly have subjected thousands and over centuries 4:46 [SPEAKER_01]: of innocent children to an incredible torture. 4:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I will use my word, despicable. 4:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at all of that as part of one long story, you can see what I was starting to learn. 5:05 [SPEAKER_01]: When I looked at some, I interviewed many, as you have, I've interviewed many victims of abuse. 5:13 [SPEAKER_01]: in the Catholic Church over the last 20 again when I look at there, some of them will show me their letters and contracts and so on. 5:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been determined that they were incredibly abused and that they have suffered endlessly. 5:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The ones that is who aren't dead, from suicide, drug abuse, alcohol, and broken marriages and lives of absolute 5:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I have talked to women living alone in single rooms, women with their children living in part here. 5:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I get a march to living in shelter. 5:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I talked to one of these victims just that three kids that she's living in a dam, shelter for the homeless, and begging for dollars to try to get food for them. 6:00 [SPEAKER_01]: These are people who are humanably hungry for what? 6:09 [SPEAKER_01]: wealthy empires. 6:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry if that sounds cynical. 6:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I've gone to great pains to show how much admiration and respect and affection I feel for the wonderful priest and nuns who go in every day and deal with terrific problems with their flock and help everybody get through this storm. 6:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But for an organization to operate in this manner. 6:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's only five or six centuries ago that they came up with this odd decision that their priest must now be celebrated. 6:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Before that, I don't think that was the case. 6:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like the most cold blooded and the cleanest kind of business manipulation that I can think of. 6:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I state to you, I don't want to get judgmental or horrible, but then I promise you, Shane, 7:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But I will remember of Gray, I'm a writer, you know, that I really value it next language. 7:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I forget what the context was, but Jesus himself once said, if you do this, what? 7:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I will vomit you from my mouth. 7:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I repeat, I will vomit you from my mouth. 7:24 [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I feel about that. 7:26 [SPEAKER_01]: corporate decision making. 7:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I looked at the papers of some of these victims, I was startled at first and soon grew used to it. 7:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what it actually says on the settlement contract that these women and some men put out, it says, hereby here he unto these precincts that this hour, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the circuit board of Baltimore, blah, blah, blah, 7:54 [SPEAKER_01]: is entitled to a settlement to be opted to her by quote, the corporation of the Catholic Church. 8:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus was supposed to be the incarnation of human love and respect for other people and caring about them and helping them in loving your neighbor. 8:14 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the incorporation, not the incarnation, and the incorporation I tell you now in your let me tell for a minute 8:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I vomit from my mouth, and so I, oh, again, I have been very strong to it. 8:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I never really thought about the property thing that makes perfect sense, because I do know that for many hundreds of years, I want to say, that the folks were married, actually, 8:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I knew that because of a old documentary I watched many years ago, actually, way before I knew anything about this case, the folks used to be married. 8:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes perfect sense. 8:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard over and over again working this case that people call the Catholic Church, the machine for the corporation, the business. 9:08 [SPEAKER_00]: it seems like that process of not allowing priests to marry in order to paint their property after they die, it just feeds the beast, feeds the machine, little makes sense. 9:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that you prepared that out. 9:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Shane. 9:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 9:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to make clear here calmly as a capable of. 9:38 [SPEAKER_01]: these legal agreements, the survivors of this abuse, and they routinely say the agreement is between the victim and the corporation of the Catholic Church. 9:52 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, they enjoy all of the protection and all of the political power and the rest. 9:59 [SPEAKER_01]: The goes with being a corporation. 10:06 [SPEAKER_01]: the difference between in-car nation and in-for-for-racian, a corporation is designed in large parts to make sure legally that you are not held accountable, personally, and so on, the corporation does, and it makes perfect sense. 10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: If what we're talking about is accurate, why wouldn't you want to have a team of attorneys, and they do? 10:33 [SPEAKER_01]: but team of private detectives, and they do. 10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And all of the other machinery employed by corporations and general motors up to South Chemical, which they heavily invested in during the war, Vietnam War, why would you not want to be incorporated? 10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: They are actually a corporation, not a church, and the indescribably vulgar and offensive reality 11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I bet some of the lawyers that General Motors or Dot Chemical would dearly love to learn that they won't have to pay taxes this year. 11:14 [SPEAKER_01]: The church has never paid them because they are holy people, right? 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They are men wearing skirts, 11:31 [SPEAKER_01]: and obligation to them, so that when they pass that basket around in dirt, everybody puts as much dollars as they can spare in there in order to be through they're going to heaven. 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the corporation side. 11:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'll just stop by saying the spiritual side, the saint and the martyrs and the wonderful priest and nuns we have today who 11:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They have a whole hearted respect, affection, and goodwill, but the corporation, I'm not going to repeat what I said about comments. 12:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll let that thing. 12:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my feeling as to how all of this really happened. 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: They had unchecked, appropriate, and unchecked political power back in the day. 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And they still do any areas in many ways. 12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And that power is what allowed them. 12:27 [SPEAKER_01]: to violate the leave law and protect criminals within their own establishment from the prosecution that should have rightly occurred. 12:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But the good news, I don't get down. 12:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm believe it or not. 12:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I write comic novels these days. 12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I laugh and I hug my grandkids. 12:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm grateful to the good things, my Catholic education gave me. 12:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I have no illustration or any individual in all of this. 12:57 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 13:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection, and daily group sessions on a variety of topics, and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 13:38 [SPEAKER_00]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4-point star rating on trust pilot. 13:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 13:48 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 13:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 14:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Start your journey today. 14:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just a reporter, just another in the endless stream of reporters out there who are saying, the law is the law. 14:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't get to avoid the law. 14:14 [SPEAKER_01]: because you belong to a powerful corporation. 14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So Tom, do you think Kathy went to the police for the Archdiocese about the abuse? 14:24 [SPEAKER_00]: What we do know is that a handful of the women who are abused say that they went to sister Kathy independently without the others knowing. 14:35 [SPEAKER_00]: and told her that they were being abused that this was happening. 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So in your opinion, being the wise person you are in knowledgeable about the case for so many years, do you think Kathy went to the police or the arts diocese? 14:50 [SPEAKER_01]: She was close to it, obviously. 14:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I've interviewed some of the same people that you have. 14:55 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no doubt that she was aware of what was going on. 14:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We know, factually, only a few agree 15:03 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that by the mask of appeared at Mr. Kathy's department, the night before she vanished, and two witnesses who were there reported. 15:14 [SPEAKER_00]: This witness reported that mask when Magnus came into Kathy's apartment on their own. 15:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Mask will appear to be angry while Magnus appeared confused. 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: At that time, the witness and her boyfriend were told they should leave, the following 15:34 [SPEAKER_00]: same day Kathy was taken. 15:35 [SPEAKER_00]: This witness explains the masqueror protester and said if you tell anyone I will kill your boyfriend and your family. 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that those allegations are real and believable and now let's just ask ourselves to keep questions. 15:56 [SPEAKER_01]: What's the likelihood that those two events occur on the same day that the non-vanisters 16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: What's the chance that is merely coincident? 16:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Come on, coincident happens now and then we all know that. 16:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Even an Irish person like me is hard enough to understand that the odds on that merely being a stance moment are extremely low. 16:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And that night at seven o'clock approximately in the evening, he vanishes, please. 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: got to be a connection there. 16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's on that basis if I'm answering your question that I'm firmly convinced that she was warning master that if you keep up this behavior several girls have come to me and it's terrible and I can't live with it and if it continues I'm going to report to her. 16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Had she already begun to do that? 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Indeed, as she go on to somebody at the police station who had been warned, the cops who were involved also in the abuse, and that triggered the finding moment, we have to discipline her, et cetera, et cetera, I can't say I don't factually know, I'm not sure it's that important because if we know that basketball was threatening her and these other kids, 17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And we now know, not from Nudgen, but from WJZTV, easily the broadcast is easily available by your listeners. 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: If we know from a station like WJZTV, that at least we're involved in the abuse frequently, then I stay to a reasonable person must include that whether she'd already gone at the top to send something or whether she simply told Master that she would tend to do 17:44 [SPEAKER_01]: and that's enough for me to conclude if I was on a grand jury, this is reasonable caused to find out more and see if it's actionable that he is involved in her death. 17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you completely. 17:58 [SPEAKER_00]: If we would have to discount a lot of information, including everything that you just mentioned, and I want to include in that 18:11 [SPEAKER_00]: that when Kathy's dad addressed at the leaving, you know, in teaching out of public school and how dangerous that could be. 18:20 [SPEAKER_00]: She mentioned that it was more dangerous for her to be a keyo than a public school. 18:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, why would she be using that language? 18:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you mentioned how Father Masque or Magnus rushed into Kathy's apartment, very upset. 18:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And in my mind, I have to think through this. 18:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Why are two? 18:39 [SPEAKER_00]: people that work at the school that she used to teach at, no longer taught at, by the time when Moscow and Magnus rushed into her apartment, she was not teaching at the school that they were at, so why would they be doing that if it was not for this very reason? 18:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And also throughout this entire process, I learned more and more 19:02 [SPEAKER_00]: about the type of person that masquerals seems to have been, they're not only the survivors who can tell, who can talk about their experiences with them, but also move his friends who have spoken about their interactions with masquerals. 19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And it seems to me that he was such a control-free, and was always used to getting his way, especially when it came to women. 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But in my mind, I think for myself, could he have done this? 19:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Could he have been pushed over the edge to the point where he wants Kathy murder? 19:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't help but to believe, 19:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But if I put myself into his mindset with everything that we know about, everything that we've been told, and also the side of his faith that he's working in, the Catholic Church, but it seems to me that this was the one time that a woman pulled him know. 20:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is why it could have sealed Kathy's faith. 20:10 [SPEAKER_00]: because from what I've learned about Kathy from people like Gemma and other students who knew her well, it seemed like she was a very stand-up person. 20:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And if these students went to her, as I believe that they did, I believe in them. 20:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And they tell her about the abuse. 20:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe she seemed to have been the person who would have stopped at nothing to ensure that it would stop. 20:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And that would also fall into the lines and it would make all of these different puzzle pieces. 20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: bit. 20:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's how it all fits in my mind. 20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to remember to do that. 20:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the history of that era, especially in Irish Catholicism, which by chance I happen to know something about. 20:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I can remember how on Saturday afternoon my mother would say, it's more a clock 21:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You better get your little jacket and tie on because confession starts in half an hour. 21:08 [SPEAKER_01]: The S mom, and you would go to the dark confessional and deal on your side in the confessional box as we call it. 21:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And this door would slide open and you weren't allowed to leave. 21:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You can always see the vague outline of the priest's face on the other side and you would then hear the voice. 21:30 [SPEAKER_01]: How long has it been since your last contract? 21:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I was here last week, Father. 21:36 [SPEAKER_01]: What sins have you committed since that contract? 21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: By the end of my brother, I call him a little shit. 21:43 [SPEAKER_01]: That's long. 21:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't be your special love, your little brother. 21:45 [SPEAKER_01]: What else did you do? 21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: A spirit of the rest. 21:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying our terror as seven-year-old kids, which these guys, the priest, can throw your hopeful, 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: can't get into heaven. 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you didn't get there, Sacramento approval you faced the very real possibility of eternity of incredible plans. 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I was thought that the devils will take you and they will take burning, clouds of battle. 22:21 [SPEAKER_01]: They will burn you with battle against your skin and you will scream and beg for mercy. 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: here in hell. 22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was told after the first 100,000 years as you growable and cry and beg and just quickly try to get relief from your agonizing suffering that the doubles will laugh and they will yell, you've only been here 100,000 years, this isn't too many. 22:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing this forever. 22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you would have nightmares and you would struggle and once you had 22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And most of the Catholics, I know, to the brave ones, I know, who've dared to stand up and fight back, live the Irish Catholic in that world, which, by the way, was the world of Pio, essentially, to its substance, but that was Pio, and it was certainly the world of pastel, who was as Irish as they come, and it was in that world that the priest had absolute power of eternity. 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: and absolute control of the criminal agonizing pain, to terrified all of us. 23:32 [SPEAKER_01]: That is not, I don't think I'm being hyperbolic. 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up with that. 23:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It took me many years of psychoanalysis, nightmares, and was struggle before I began to see that I could go beyond that early upbringing and perhaps begin to make a pain or more rational view. 23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: But back in the day, when all of this was happening in the late 60s and early 70s, it killed, guys like Maskel were fully in charge. 24:03 [SPEAKER_01]: He heard this thing, absolute power, greed, absolute corrupt, you know, that phrase, and politics, they had absolute power. 24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It is now a time and you'll permit me one moment of raw, raw purely. 24:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It is time to break their whole. 24:22 [SPEAKER_01]: this time to destroy the corporation. 24:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Not the spiritual life of the church, let me underline that, and not the wonderful work that the good people in the church do, but the holes of the corporation must be broken. 24:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We have lived with tyranny in this arena, this world, from this far back, as I remember, and I am proud, I hope in a small, 24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: in breaking that hole. 24:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So, that's my feeling as to why indeed he would be able to gather his forces and what's sad to know is, be may of left to go and go on to Western public high school to see because he would not longer endure watching what was being done to 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: looked her way to find some sane place to live and work, and she went on and did that. 25:27 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll never know, but it seems like a logical explanation to me. 26:06 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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