0:10 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 0:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, everybody, this is Jim and Shane and I always am excited to talk to people that I know and this person, I you all know and love because she was in the capers and this is my friend Mary Spence and Mary and I. 0:49 [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate each other's eccentricity because she is one of the most creative interesting adorable people I've ever met in my whole life and today we're going to welcome her to the program. 1:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi Mary. 1:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yay, glad to be here. 1:06 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? 1:07 [SPEAKER_02]: We're good. 1:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 1:12 [SPEAKER_02]: How we know each other from way, way back, which maybe I knew you more so than you knew me. 1:19 [SPEAKER_02]: We attended the same pool. 1:22 [SPEAKER_02]: We both went to St. William of York. 1:24 [SPEAKER_02]: It were about two years ahead of me. 1:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It was in the same class with Theresa Lang after for seven years. 1:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do know her. 1:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Although when we got to high pool, you know how it is. 1:35 [SPEAKER_02]: People drift off with different groups of friends. 1:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't really hang around in high pool together. 1:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a lot of people don't know that Teresa Lancaster was Teresa Harris. 1:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Correct. 1:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Joe Harris was my chemistry teacher at Arcade. 1:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, for older brother. 1:53 [SPEAKER_02]: First day of birth grade, I met Teresa Harris. 1:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Beclad. 1:58 [SPEAKER_02]: When we left blue, I was supposed to be in patrol two. 2:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it really sure what patrol two was. 2:06 [SPEAKER_02]: It was you went out in a group and you all went home together and patrol two cross-endments and Avenue and went home a certain way. 2:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was mixed up and I was standing out on Cookflane, and a long came a really nice lady who said, are you a large? 2:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Then I said, oh, I'm not saying to talk to strangers. 2:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Is this lady? 2:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And it turned out to be Theresa Harris, this mother, and she blamed Theresa with her daughter. 2:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I let her take me home. 2:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I got in her car, and that's how to reach. 2:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And I really met, that played together sometimes. 2:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And whatnot, when we were younger. 2:47 [SPEAKER_02]: We had to talk about how Sister Kathy motivated you to be a great teacher. 2:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget your own mother was a great teacher. 2:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And in sixth seventh and eighth grade, 3:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I took art lessons from Gemma's mother that she gave one Saturday. 3:05 [SPEAKER_02]: She had an art studio in her basement where she took a kid and I have to say she was the most. 3:12 [SPEAKER_02]: She was the kind of teacher that could really motivate a kid to take risk and try new things. 3:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And she'd be like, we can fix it if it does at work. 3:21 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that where I got my idea of, my, we'll just try. 3:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And if it's not right, you can redo it. 3:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a good lesson to learn for life. 3:32 [SPEAKER_02]: But here's the most important thing. 3:33 [SPEAKER_02]: You do not know, Jamma. 3:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm so glad your mother didn't know. 3:38 [SPEAKER_02]: But the first time I ever kissed a boy within your basement, Mary. 3:45 [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, you can't tell your mother. 3:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad she maybe is looking down and laughing now, but there was a boy in my class and they were washing up our brushes at the end of the day. 3:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It happened with a really nice, not a pushy aggressive kind of kiss that was a very sweet first kiss to have. 4:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So I remember his name. 4:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And first of all, Mary, I had no idea you came to the art class. 4:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was. 4:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm so excited to hear that because I knew that you and I had a connection before we had the keepers connection. 4:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I just write another people. 4:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because my mom really did she was way ahead of her time and she has encouraged kids to be original. 4:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And you are one of the most original people I know. 4:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, you have to go back and tell us how old you were and who the boy was. 4:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think I was in seventh grade. 4:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess 12 or 13. 4:41 [SPEAKER_02]: With that, what would be in seventh grade? 4:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. 4:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I get his first name with Mark, but I'm not going to stay the rest. 4:49 [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't know to faint well. 4:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yums he went to public school. 4:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I only saw him on Saturdays, but we had become friends and we talked together and it was a really great way to interact with the other sex and a non-written kind of way in the art class and things just happened. 5:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess he liked me or something. 5:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And did you ever like pursue this relationship as it turned out I think it was sophomore year of high school. 5:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I needed a date for a dance and he was nice enough to go with me. 5:22 [SPEAKER_02]: But you know that we never bullied other outside of that. 5:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope Mark is listening because we all want to mark who are you. 5:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I also remember coming up at the end of the class, waiting for my mother to pick me up. 5:41 [SPEAKER_02]: We'd wait outside if it was nice weather. 5:44 [SPEAKER_02]: He'd wait in your living room till 1230 or whatever it was. 5:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Your father was always there. 5:49 [SPEAKER_02]: He was so nice. 5:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And your younger brother with the Jimmy? 5:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, okay. 5:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes he was in there watching TV and occasionally a certain teenage or named Jamma would come downstairs and I would see her, but I didn't really know you at school because I think you were two years ahead of me. 6:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Mary, do you remember that my mom, when you guys used to come in the front door, she would put down like a big plastic runner head from the front door to the base, yeah, he would all walk on the runner to the walk on the carpet. 6:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I had relatives who had that all the time, so it didn't string to me. 6:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize it was just for weekends. 6:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, along with the vinyl split covers. 6:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you had them, but I had relatives who had them. 6:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't remember that. 6:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I was very confused. 6:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how, you know, my first exposure with Gemma doll. 6:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And here we are again, huh? 6:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 6:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So I went to St. William and then ended up at 6:56 [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I choose to go. 6:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember any decision making. 7:00 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just that's where everybody wants to go. 7:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to go. 7:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So I ended up at Kio. 7:06 [SPEAKER_02]: My experience was like yours, rather on a learn some stuff. 7:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I was at a bunch of club. 7:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you this. 7:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm too talkative now. 7:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I get way off subject and talk about things and I've no business talking about because it's 7:21 [SPEAKER_02]: But back then, I was like a mole. 7:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I just quietly sat and lerved and I don't know what was going on in other people's conversation. 7:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Which was funny because when I went to recently got a master's in Pline Art from the University of Baltimore in creative writing. 7:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And we were told one stimulus for writing is to sit in a cafe and listen to other people's conversation. 7:49 [SPEAKER_02]: and then come up with this story that explains whatever it was they were talking about. 7:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that as you're from? 7:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So, that I already knew how to do that. 7:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Could I just do that in high school? 8:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I rarely, though, I just quietly took it all in. 8:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Did I know Sister Kathy personally? 8:07 [SPEAKER_02]: No. 8:08 [SPEAKER_02]: But I full her frequently because I had this habit. 8:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't like to go from point A to point B when we changed classes. 8:17 [SPEAKER_02]: If you know what I'm talking about. 8:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I would say, I want to go. 8:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Who else is here today? 8:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what my friend doing, it's in history class right now. 8:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll go buy your class and wave. 8:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So I would start on the first floor and walk all the way around. 8:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Run around the second floor, run around the third floor. 8:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And then just make it the class in time for where I would be. 8:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how come I kind of disdain away from Maskel to end of the whole. 8:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I would only go by their one because he would just meet. 8:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He or I don't know what, he isn't the right word. 8:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Maskel would such a observant individual. 8:57 [SPEAKER_02]: If he saw me going by their toy, he would say, get the weirder supposed to be. 9:03 [SPEAKER_02]: He knew what he was doing. 9:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was one other teacher that ever said anything to me with Mr. Paul Lett, and she said, next time we meet, you treat. 9:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that meant I wasn't fit to go by her more than once either. 9:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So I late stayed away from certain areas, but the rest of the time I was like going all over the place. 9:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Though I would frequently go by sister Kathy, she was always nice, mild, and hide everybody, and that's the only content I've never had or is a teacher, anything like that. 9:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you, Gemma, I didn't know anything that was going on in T.E.L. 9:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't find out, so years later, till the 90s, that some of the stuff was going on. 9:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel bad about saying, at originally saying, if I'd known I would have done something, but now that I think about it, probably not, I probably, that I wouldn't have wanted to, but it would have been scary, and I would have known that no one would believe me, because the priest would never do anything like that. 10:10 [SPEAKER_02]: With the attitude that people would have had, those who were survivors, 10:17 [SPEAKER_02]: feel so bad that they were stuck in that situation and really no one could really do anything in those days. 10:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, thanks to them that it all come out, people might believe young girls and boys when they say, you know, what's going on behind the scenes? 10:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, many of our listeners will have already seen the keepers and they'll probably recognize your name. 10:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But we actually, in our discussion group on Facebook, we were asking people who in the series would you love to talk to and pretty quickly your name came up just because you seem like a very cool aunt. 10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: You seem very funny, horrible and truthful. 10:56 [SPEAKER_00]: and just a super cool person. 10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted to also mention for our listeners who haven't seen the keepers yet, which I feel like they should. 11:05 [SPEAKER_00]: They should definitely go watch it. 11:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you to me what your role was in the keepers and what you heard that day? 11:12 [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, for those who haven't seen the keepers or even those who have, the keepers was not something like a production where 11:21 [SPEAKER_02]: There was a casting call when we all came forward in auditioned and we were picked. 11:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of us didn't really want to do it. 11:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of us had to really think hard about it. 11:33 [SPEAKER_02]: We want the publicity prior to the keeper. 11:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I had mentioned on a page that I 11:46 [SPEAKER_02]: and it had to deal with just us talking about the events. 11:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had mentioned that I knew what I was doing at night, and I had heard some noise coming from that direction. 12:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I really didn't think... 12:05 [SPEAKER_02]: It related, but I thought, what if it did, and I kept my mouth shut, because we were urged to if we knew anything at all, even if we thought it was dumb, even if we thought it wasn't related, come forward and let somebody else who knows about such manners besides. 12:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So I just, here's my chance to come forward and get something off my chest and I've been carrying for years and before I can extend that was, then I heard a commotion up on North End Road, or not really up. 12:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Some kind of hollering up on Rockland, North End Road on that night. 12:52 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 12:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection, and daily group sessions on a variety of topics, and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 13:32 [SPEAKER_00]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 13:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 13:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 13:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Start your journey today. 13:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And nobody has said how does she know it's exactly that night. 14:02 [SPEAKER_02]: But how can she remember this all these years? 14:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I think she say this day. 14:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're baking it up because she wants attention. 14:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to tell you why I was there and why I remember the specifics of it. 14:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And it goes along the line of, if you're old enough, you remember where you were when John F. Kennedy was shot. 14:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Were you remember where you were when the space shuttle exploded? 14:30 [SPEAKER_02]: It was one of those moments in my life. 14:32 [SPEAKER_02]: There was one person in the keepers who remembered because it was the night before her child was born. 14:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So she knew the exact day that something happened. 14:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So I can tell you how I remember this, and maybe it'll make it more reasonable as to why I would remember, after all these years, and not have made this up. 14:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And this says, I'll start at the point where my history teacher, Mr. 14:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Known, who I did not have a crush on, and I'll explain later why we were hanging around his house. 15:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Nane came in on a Monday morning and this would have been the following week after Sister Kathy was disappeared. 15:16 [SPEAKER_02]: She disappeared on a Friday to go fast forward a week and then three days the Monday morning and he came into history class and he said, I have to tell you what happened to me 15:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk to you about how our government work and how you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty and how I was crucified by the police over this weekend. 15:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It was one of those moments like what? 15:49 [SPEAKER_02]: What happened, Mr. Knin? 15:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So he went on to tell us how on the Friday night, the anniversary one week later from Mr. Kathy's disappearance. 16:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Knin was coming home and with the round 10 o'clock at night or so. 16:05 [SPEAKER_02]: He said, oh, I wonder if Mr. E. Colter's sister wrote, was up that the week later and she hasn't come back. 16:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll just stop by and see how she's doing. 16:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Billy pulled, he lived around the corner as from the keepers that you've seen it. 16:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And he pulled in and said, gosh, the light's around. 16:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to bother her, maybe she's leaving. 16:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to go home. 16:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Billy pulls out and lo and behold, the barking line had been staked out. 16:35 [SPEAKER_02]: by police for. 16:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And they pulled him over and said, what were you doing? 16:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just wanted to see Mr. Russell, but I decided not to. 16:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Why did you want to see her? 16:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So they pulled him in and gave him like a few hours of grilling and acting like he did it. 16:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He somehow had something to do with Mr. Kathy's disappearance. 16:59 [SPEAKER_02]: He says they put him in a car, they drove him around our beauties, and all these places he'd never been. 17:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And said, did you take her up here that night, Joe? 17:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And now I didn't have anything to do with it. 17:13 [SPEAKER_02]: We were just so appalled that such a thing would happen. 17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: But none of us believe that our history teacher would have had anything to do with it. 17:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Row and D. Hold and thinking about that for a few hours later, I said, oh my god, what if he needs an alibi? 17:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to have to be his alibi because I know where he puts that easy thing, and I'm going to have to come forward and confess. 17:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But I stood outside his house and watched him in his undershirt. 17:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So I, my whole life, I was like, I'm not going to say anything now, I'm just going to wait till he's arrested and of course thankfully he never was. 17:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's how I came to know the exact date that where I was because that was the night of Chicago experience. 18:05 [SPEAKER_02]: and that I had to provide his out by, so I had to remember what he was doing that night. 18:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So what was I doing that night? 18:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a friend who lived down near up-when-supportment, family, you know where that is. 18:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Crack down the street from her, lived another male teacher from TO. 18:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I used to be down her house and we'd see him drive it, but I back and forth all the time, he had a blue, 18:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Viceroy's plate, G-37-909, and Fulvania, and I have a good memory. 18:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Visual memory. 18:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, he moved. 18:45 [SPEAKER_02]: In the summer, we didn't know where he moved to. 18:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So, we were just wondering, where did he go? 18:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So, we put on the beginning of November. 18:55 [SPEAKER_02]: back then it was a big deal because new phone book came out. 18:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You remember that demo they would come around and deliver them to your front door. 19:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And we said, let's look him up and see where he's living now. 19:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And she had an interest in him. 19:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to say. 19:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So we go. 19:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll pick the dress and we got out one of those AD's team maps. 19:15 [SPEAKER_02]: There's great big map. 19:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. 19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe if you leave live in England, they would call it a ordinance map anyway. 19:23 [SPEAKER_02]: It's now you've just pulled one Google map and see them in on the neighborhood, but silly sound is addressed. 19:29 [SPEAKER_02]: We looked it up on that map and I was like, 19:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I know exactly where that is, that's over by Rockland, Jr. High. 19:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, it was called Rockland, Jr. High, then. 19:40 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be many renaming. 19:42 [SPEAKER_02]: The whole system has gone away with Jr. High. 19:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be a middle school. 19:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to walk over there. 19:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not far. 19:50 [SPEAKER_02]: It's right between here and my aunt's house. 19:53 [SPEAKER_02]: She lived on Malbrook Road, which is one block kiss with Ben. 19:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was familiar with the neighborhood. 20:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So we just took a little walk. 20:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had to stay. 20:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I looked up the temperature because I remember it being cold. 20:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It was in the 40s, which 20:10 [SPEAKER_02]: If you do send a grade that would be eight degrees, send a grade maybe, and remember this would know them, which if you live in the Southern Hemisphere, you'd be thinking, spring, but this was more like showing on to winter. 20:23 [SPEAKER_02]: It was dark, it had been dark for three hours. 20:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just creeping around. 20:28 [SPEAKER_02]: There were not people on the street. 20:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Normally, we didn't see a skull and so we go up the block and there's the health and there's with Mr. Nguyen up the second floor window, putting one, his coming is here and the light went out, just seconds later another light went on down there and we were across the street behind a wall and we were watching what's going to do. 20:56 [SPEAKER_02]: and he came out dressed in a suit and clay, who came down, got in his car and rode away. 21:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I looked at, we had watches back then, not dolphin. 21:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And it said, oh, the little after eight, he's going to be late for his date. 21:10 [SPEAKER_02]: If he was supposed to be there at eight o'clock, and we were just digling in everything, and we just stood there, okay. 21:18 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll only do nail. 21:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when we heard a brief, 21:23 [SPEAKER_02]: loud shouting from the right if it were a clock I'd say one or two a clock on a clock somewhere we were standing 21:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when we went home. 21:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So come to find out. 21:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't find out until probably 10 years ago that Sister Kathy was actually taken from her apartment. 21:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Because the news story says she disappeared on a shopping trip to Edmonton Village. 21:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all I read. 21:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all I asked him that somehow her car was found down by Edmonton Village somewhere. 22:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know where I was at night, and I know when I heard that night. 22:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'll just throw it out there that maybe would have been related, could have been not. 22:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Could it have been someone yelling in an argument? 22:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 22:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Could it have been someone shouting to a friend? 22:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 22:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Could it have been anger? 22:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 22:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Could it have been just somebody that calling out, don't forget to bring out the mail, could he? 22:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever. 22:26 [SPEAKER_02]: For the beer, I guess. 22:28 [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I threw it out there. 22:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, the voice you heard, did it sound like a man's voice? 22:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, a male boy. 22:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I say booming to me, that doesn't mean deepness, dearly, loud, like projection loud. 22:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, Mary, I'm going to remind you, but you came, you were adamant about letting somebody know this information that you came to a meeting at my home, the first one we had, and some of the survivors came and talked about what happened to them, and who told me on the way out about Teresa. 23:02 [SPEAKER_01]: correct. 23:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was very important what you had to share and you didn't tell us all the information you've shared just now, but it was because of the goodness of your heart and because you wanted to know the truth that you came forward with to me. 23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But my question is, you said you and your friend looked at your watches and it was you said it was shortly after 23:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, do you think it's possible that the shouting was him? 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Nunn, what if he was going over to the window? 23:40 [SPEAKER_02]: No, he was in his core. 23:42 [SPEAKER_02]: He went down, straight to Rockland Road. 23:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it happened. 23:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but between that and it was like he had barely turned the corner and we stood up and went. 23:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe it and then we heard the other thing I wanted to mention to you Mary before I forgot is that that page that you were talking about still doesn't exist and for anybody who is an alumni of Archbishop Kio it is a KHS 24:12 [SPEAKER_01]: survivors, and it's okay. 24:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just for survivors. 24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's for anybody who's an alumni of Archbishop Leo, so you will be anybody who's listening who fits that category. 24:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Please request membership, but Abby and the moderators will ask the two other people to vouch for you that you went to key for that now. 24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 24:37 [SPEAKER_02]: They grandfathered some of us over under a new name. 24:41 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I want to say to the listeners is that I'm going to make a confession because I want to support what Mary saying when I was a senior my friends and I. 24:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And my mother's in heaven, but she already knows this, we would go to a liquor store. 24:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be like five of us. 25:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And whoever looked the oldest we go in, I don't think I was ever brave enough to with fake cards. 25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We get a sick pack. 25:08 [SPEAKER_01]: and split it between five of us. 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 25:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we would go over to Kingston Road where the male teachers lived. 25:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we thought we were something else. 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And we would do doughnuts in the stringent in front of their house. 25:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the key first. 25:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was one of Ben's. 25:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So do it right 25:35 [SPEAKER_01]: To not hit a car with their parents, whatever car they were being allowed to drive was the one that would be doing the illegal flavors from the problem we would already yell in Mr. 25:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Son that we call it by their first names, and it's like somebody the like we don't want we'd vote from there. 26:03 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go, Mary. 26:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you weren't doing that, but I was. 26:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Way is to go to St. Warren because we found out Mrs. McGin. 26:13 [SPEAKER_02]: He went to 10 o'clock. 26:14 [SPEAKER_02]: May I? 26:15 [SPEAKER_02]: There. 26:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Way wanted to see what she wore out. 26:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I look forward. 26:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure you probably knew where Mrs. Gorge and lived from thing William and I knew where Mrs. Custon lived because she was on our side of the highway. 26:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were all like late teachers at St. Williams, but they were also like friends of my parents. 26:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And we all belong to the same ball and the same whatever, swim club. 26:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was just like, my mother used to go to ball game with Mrs. Custon to oral game. 26:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I know, so I've heard from people who have been very supportive that it's been. 26:48 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't think you're stalker. 26:51 [SPEAKER_02]: One girl said, let me tell you what, I used to do. 26:54 [SPEAKER_02]: We used to get dressed up in our Halloween costume, and then make my mother drive a doll over the city so we could just see different seats here. 27:02 [SPEAKER_02]: On Halloween, though, if I guess you either do it or you don't, and if you don't understand it, but... 27:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, you mentioned this already, but I wanted to bring a little bit more attention to it. 27:14 [SPEAKER_00]: We've spoken to a lot of people who have been in the keepers. 27:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like a common theme that some of them have is that some received her full comments after the documentary was released. 27:27 [SPEAKER_00]: When we spoke to Sharon Smith, she mentioned that her mom were criticized for speaking out about wrongdoing that they felt that their relative had done, 27:36 [SPEAKER_00]: which of course was Billy and her dad and Gemma has mentioned before that she was also criticized and there were her for comments there for her bringing attention to the case within the keepers did you suffer from her for comments that were made through social media and if so what kind of comment did you think? 27:56 [SPEAKER_02]: part of the problem is because people do not interact, face the safe, they interact with the screen and word, they don't realize that there's a person on the other side that is going to read those words. 28:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, people nowadays do not know how to have a discourse of, I think this 28:20 [SPEAKER_02]: the discourse becomes your realm. 28:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I found. 28:25 [SPEAKER_02]: People were saying, as if I were lying that I hadn't really heard what I heard. 28:31 [SPEAKER_02]: She couldn't have. 28:32 [SPEAKER_02]: She was too far away. 28:34 [SPEAKER_02]: She couldn't have because there were probably kids that the fool playing basketball and they were shouting and 28:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't tell me what I think I heard. 28:48 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not gonna change a situation. 28:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure I know what I heard. 28:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you disagree that maybe it wasn't possible to hear anything from a distance or whatever, disagree, but you don't have to put your disagreement out in public. 29:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing is, I never once said, I heard, by the mask of yelling at sister Kathy, and that's a lead carefully, listen carefully. 29:14 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what my said. 29:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I heard a thing which may or may not have been connected when I wanted to say was in your situation, if you hear something, if you see something, if you come toward and let the authorities decide, 29:33 [SPEAKER_02]: if it fits the overall picture, and they can reject it or not, but you'll feel better about yourself having gotten that off your conscious, and you don't have to wonder about it anymore. 29:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, I think you're exactly right. 29:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Something that I've mentioned many times before is that if you know something, even if you think that it's silly, 29:54 [SPEAKER_00]: if it may sound stupid or it's just so little like that could be a major part to the larger puzzle. 30:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to thank you for coming forward with that story and I hope that will instill some hope within other people and some need to also come forward because 30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, when we have each of those small little puzzles, puzzle pieces fit together, that can give us something big and something huge. 30:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've had that before where someone has come forward with something so small that they didn't think it was important. 30:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for doing that. 30:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to also lead into something that you mentioned slightly in an email to Gemma and I about how your father met basketball. 30:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us? 30:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. 30:36 [SPEAKER_02]: My father was a transition surgeon. 30:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And he had been in World War II, and after World War II, he continued in the army reserve, and they would have these once among these drills where he would go. 30:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And once a year they would have these huge, I don't know, military, Maryland, saying to prepare for a disaster, and the National Guard would come and the hundred station hospital unit would be there, and other things were around the state to deal with a disaster. 31:06 [SPEAKER_02]: low and behold, I believe it was probably a fun day because this would have happened over a weekend on a Saturday or Sunday. 31:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And I came in the front door. 31:15 [SPEAKER_02]: My father was in the dining room, standing and quitting. 31:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 31:20 [SPEAKER_02]: His wallet and stuff away where he kept it in there. 31:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I heard him say to my mother, she's home. 31:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, oh, dear, what have I done now? 31:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Is there going to yell at me? 31:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So my mother comes down to kitchen. 31:33 [SPEAKER_02]: White thinger, she envelopes his tail. 31:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And my father says, I met a friend of yours today. 31:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, a friend of mine, too. 31:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, father, maskful. 31:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, he's no friend of mine. 31:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He's the priest that are school. 31:50 [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't have anything to do with them. 31:57 [SPEAKER_02]: True. 31:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And my father said, good, because I met him this weekend. 32:02 [SPEAKER_02]: He thinks he's your friend. 32:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was killed a weirdo. 32:07 [SPEAKER_02]: They away from him. 32:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wish my father were alive today. 32:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say, what gave you the idea he was a weirdo? 32:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I know having been a nurse for 30 plus years. 32:20 [SPEAKER_02]: You can pick up weirdo up like you. 32:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So it could have just been simply that. 32:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Before I was wondering, did he try to convince my father that I had, like, a logical problem? 32:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I should let, you know, he should let a daughter come for counseling. 32:37 [SPEAKER_02]: and my father probably just agreed with him. 32:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he was glad that I hadn't already been going to count. 32:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that your parents felt that way because it seems like he was able to trick a lot of parents. 32:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And father probably wasn't the most cap-licable cap-lic so I doubt he described to the creeps of God fully. 32:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm also thinking real, I think it was real use and by the way, 33:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Will Hughes wouldn't again probably know me from Adam, but I just loved her. 33:08 [SPEAKER_02]: She said, I went on her bus to go home some time. 33:12 [SPEAKER_02]: She was so nice, missed by vicious, funny, I loved her, lay it. 33:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad she can still have it after everything that happened to her. 33:21 [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, she said her mother said she didn't trust Nass believe that there was something creepy about him. 33:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And Mary, what you're also, your story is also pointing out is that Nassville was part of that exercise because of his involvement with the, what did you say with the Nassville? 33:39 [SPEAKER_02]: He went in the National Guard, I believe, with a joint exercise. 33:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and I think another thing my father may have, again, I'm just casting and speculating as we do about everything, but it could also have been like, maskful fascination with military and all that kind of stuff. 34:00 [SPEAKER_02]: My father was like not really into the like shooting of guns and blowing people up as heck of it. 34:06 [SPEAKER_02]: He was his unit was like, mash. 34:09 [SPEAKER_02]: where people got injured and you threw them back together. 34:12 [SPEAKER_02]: He probably didn't have that much respect for somebody who was going to go out there and blow up the commies kind of attitude. 34:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we understand that Moscow when he was at the pastor at our lady of the tree, the directory was across the street from the church. 34:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the front room, he had his military uniforms and his 34:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I know someone at Kio who ever come forward if she wants is to say to me, you want to come talk with math going and me, he is really a cool guy. 34:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He lets you sit on his lap and wear his military helmet. 34:55 [SPEAKER_02]: She seemed to like that and enjoy if that's so not for me. 35:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Mary, you've just shared something that nobody else shared with us, so you may not have thought that you that was a little piece, but it's again, a very bizarre way for any adult to act with us. 35:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 35:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, you mentioned to us before about odd behavior that Maskel had while you were at the school. 35:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us about when he was referencing the book, the Godfather? 35:29 [SPEAKER_02]: The Godfather came out. 35:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I looked it up. 35:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Think towards the end of the night or early, 1969, so this would have been the end of my freshman year. 35:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Kathy, still there, my freshman year, but I had this had nothing to do with her. 35:45 [SPEAKER_02]: He used to Gemma, you'll relate to this. 35:48 [SPEAKER_02]: You know how maybe if you saw Father Alberg walking around, think William, he would be carrying his Bible in his arm, or some kind of holy book, maschool would stand out in the hall outside of the chapel at change of class, holding that same way, like up against the court, the God's father. 36:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And the friend of mine was walking by, and she had her copy of the God's father, 36:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And she said, oh, I'm reading it too. 36:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, have you read page? 36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what the page number was. 36:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll make one up. 36:23 [SPEAKER_02]: 250 yet. 36:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And she said, no, he said, read that. 36:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So of course, we ran right down to study whole and opened it up. 36:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was the scene where funny was for lack of a better word. 36:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Winning one of the bride's names up against the wall. 36:42 [SPEAKER_02]: upstairs at the family home during his nurse wedding. 36:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And we just thought, oh, mask, if a dirty old man, look, look at he enjoys reading that. 36:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But again, it occurred to us that he was anything other than, you know, priests are a sexual. 37:02 [SPEAKER_02]: He did this as a release because he can have normal sex 37:10 [SPEAKER_02]: dirty old man, but it never occurred to us that he was actually acting on some of the stuff surreal. 37:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And then again, I thought, it is also like the Godfather with the dark and the lamp on the desk and all that. 37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: would took you into his office because I know just walking by at the door with open yeah I was afraid to afraid to have anything to do with pre the viewing audience may not be aware that the chat they uh... his office and the school shots 37:47 [SPEAKER_01]: were not the actual interior of Archbishop Theo women who have talked about what happened to them there or that went there gave really good descriptions to our filmmakers about the kinds of chairs and tables we had where the desks were where everything was in his office so that they were able to actually recreate Hollywood style or in Hollywood or their 38:15 [SPEAKER_01]: a replica of his office that's actually very accurate. 38:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not truly the inside of KEO because they were not from the government side building. 38:25 [SPEAKER_02]: When I first saw the documentary, I thought, how did they ever get in there? 38:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I really thought they'd probably didn't. 38:33 [SPEAKER_02]: They would watch dyes if they would be foolished with them. 38:36 [SPEAKER_02]: But even if they had, I was like, man, if they did get in there, they'd thought the kind of rockers we had, all right, we're just a part of feeling. 38:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they're stuck out. 38:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You're Memphis. 38:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about some of the wall. 38:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is that the young woman that plays G in those episodes with the long hair was actually an actress in her 30s. 38:59 [SPEAKER_02]: People don't think to ask, wait a minute, how could they have gotten these old shots the same? 39:05 [SPEAKER_02]: They just, you're just tricked in a way that probably would for you. 39:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Good job for them, though. 39:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they had some sort of one thing that I thought was a big continuity problem and I'm shocked they didn't catch. 39:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Was when the girl at Western went to talk to Sister Kathy and she was wearing a Catholic school uniform. 39:24 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what you wore in public school. 39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait a minute, when the keepers, she's wearing a pretty sure that I'm pretty sure or that I'll let us that's Juliana and I will ask her because they may have had uniforms at Western. 39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an although I don't think they may be, but no, I'll ask her. 39:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I think some people don't understand that that was not KEO. 39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: That, right, there's teaching at a public school in the city that was not here when Juliana spoke to her. 39:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But with there, I'll take a look at it again. 39:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And that word, the inside was probably Hollywood hot. 40:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know they did your schools that were in Los Angeles, I believe that we're not in session and we're willing to permit them to do filming inside the schools. 40:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But they did, you know, they're probably you two out there. 40:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. 40:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, we know that Muscle had a lot of weird habits and weird things that he'd like to bring up. 40:21 [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned about this thing. 40:23 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to happen. 40:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but we, yes, several people have that I've talked to. 40:30 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll remember this. 40:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Across from Muscle. 40:33 [SPEAKER_02]: wolf off it was a girl's room and there was a sanitary machine, a phasery napkin machine on the wall. 40:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know whether it was really always broken or that was mask of thing that he told the cleaning lady, but supposedly he told the cleaning lady that since it was always 40:54 [SPEAKER_02]: broken, just give him some sanitary napkin and he'll keep him in his office and their sign was put up that if you need one, does the father mask? 41:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So someone I know did and don't ask me who I just remember having a conversation with someone. 41:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll never do that again. 41:12 [SPEAKER_02]: He started asking me how frequent or my period, how many days do they last? 41:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Do they have your life? 41:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And do you ever worry that you might keep pregnant? 41:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And she thought, I'm going to say no, because if I say yes, he's going to think I'm sexually active and make me come and talk to him. 41:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So she picked the right answer and said, no, why would I? 41:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And she got all. 41:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Art's different people when they described on your podcast that he was heavily into asking questions about menstruation. 41:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he had a weird fascination with that bowel movements as well. 41:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Aren't you weird stuff? 41:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we can all probably think and right now, why would you want to know about when your period is, right? 41:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's my understanding that he met every week with the nurse, the guidance counselor, who was, I don't know if it was a non or a late teacher and they went over the names of girls who were either having issues health issues academic issues at home and I'm sure he knew. 42:18 [SPEAKER_02]: the time of everybody's period building because well think about it why would you want to know that I used to carry my own with me to fight and I was would have been more to fight even if the nurse for sanitary maybe that's the but it gave him an end to stay like I said 42:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, is it ever late, and what it is? 42:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Are you worried that you're pregnant? 42:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I was, and I wasn't even sexually active, but I thought if I went swimming at the pool with St. Joe, a son might end up there. 42:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Which I did one time, we had a some kind of pool party, everything, Joe, one summer. 42:54 [SPEAKER_00]: St. Joe with the boy, both by the way. 42:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I also wanted to bring up something that you also mentioned in the email, and you're welcome to say whatever you like about this, but about a vague memory that you have, 43:06 [SPEAKER_02]: This is what I'm wanted to ask you. 43:08 [SPEAKER_02]: The you all talk to people who say, 43:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember this, but I'm not really sure it happened to me, because that's the way I feel. 43:19 [SPEAKER_02]: It was, it pivoted in a way, but put it be that I just have empathy with someone else because it would have been such an embarrassing thing to have happened. 43:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, but I can remember, I'll say it was me. 43:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, I only went by mascot into the whole one time, but I hear I was going by on my round. 43:39 [SPEAKER_02]: to go around everywhere else, read time, and my shirt tailed with that, and Father Maskel said, come over here, shirt tails out, turn around, and he stood up behind me, and really hard, rested hand down inside my girl, really slowly tucked my shirt tail in all the way around, while he's rubbing, grinding up against me in the back, 44:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, I thought, all it couldn't be anything's actually the pre- did I know. 44:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, it was more embarrassment for me that I was being reprimanded in public that way. 44:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I would have rather he's to go tuck it in the rest. 44:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's important to know that many of the survivors talk about their own repressed memory, and it seems like there's an event or something that happens where they'll receive a little bit of it, but then over time they'll receive more and more. 44:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So you asked us if we had heard anyone say things like that where they start to remember something and it's definitely a huge pattern we've seen. 44:45 [SPEAKER_02]: good. 44:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it was me. 44:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 44:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't just see it because I remember the feeling of it. 44:51 [SPEAKER_02]: How would I remember that feeling if I just stole him, pull some other girl they'll bring Tucker shirt in unless he did it everybody. 44:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned before to us as well about you walking to hunting Hillspool. 45:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Demi, you know what that is. 45:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we all walked. 45:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I walked. 45:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how far that went. 45:10 [SPEAKER_01]: You lived for a lot further away. 45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: West Dells, but we walked every single day. 45:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably at least two miles to get to go. 45:18 [SPEAKER_02]: No, the way I just either don't chat with Caitlin. 45:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I would walk down my street, make a left turn on what died. 45:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Walk along woodside and right where woodside kind of turned into nodding him was where Teresa Harris lived and then you would go down a little bit A family we knew lived on the right and then you would go around in a little corner and you'd be up full so 45:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Several times when I was on that nodding him, Fred's between what's died and the pool, Maskel would drive path. 45:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And we knew everybody's core. 45:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to tell you, I knew every core in that parking spot. 45:58 [SPEAKER_02]: The guy used to watch people come in the morning and see what kind of core they drew. 46:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And although he poured up the other end by his office, but I still knew his core. 46:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes he blow the horns, sometimes he wave. 46:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And the first time I was like, who was that? 46:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But then I was like, oh, it's miserable. 46:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And a couple of times I would stay in the course of my years of going back and forth before I would see him drive in. 46:24 [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't occur to me. 46:25 [SPEAKER_02]: What's he doing over here? 46:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll trace go out and visit, just see this big or something. 46:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Or it's a good way to cut through to predric road from Edmonton. 46:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he was up there for some reason. 46:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thinking, oh, now I'm like, oh, of course, he wanted to drive by to reach out. 46:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe just drop to her off from one of his trips with her. 46:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And that would have been in the sun, though. 46:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was in the summer walking. 46:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Somewhere after 69. 46:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, one of the last things that I had that I wanted to bring up to give some background to this recently, Gemma, and I have been exploring a possible connection with father and my school in a CIA program called MK Ultra. 47:06 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that we have several facts about the program, the points that may be a portion of this program is being tested on unknowing individuals and Baltimore specifically. 47:16 [SPEAKER_00]: around the same time period that the abuse was occurring to many of our survivors. 47:22 [SPEAKER_00]: We've made several links between Masco and MK All-Try, and we're still exploring that, and we're hoping to share our findings and discoveries in the later episode. 47:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But there was a little thing that you included that you had mentioned to us about a very weird interaction. 47:37 [SPEAKER_00]: We can say, can you tell me about that about your interaction at the grocery store? 47:41 [SPEAKER_02]: OK, I didn't even know what wormwood is, was, or whatever. 47:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It's another Netflix documentary. 47:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was filmed having to do with a man who worked in this program that you described, or similar one, that where they were testing LSD to control people and to understand how to manipulate people using LSD. 48:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And suddenly, the guy, 48:08 [SPEAKER_02]: closely committed suicide by jumping out of window and the family doesn't quite believe that they believe that perhaps he was given LSD and manipulated and jumping out the window or he was perfectly killed because he was going to expose something about the program. 48:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So the young man 48:30 [SPEAKER_02]: who was his son at the time, and it's now probably my age or about, was named Erick Olf and he was played himself in the documentary describing his family's effort to understand what happened with his father. 48:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was in a grocery store down the street from me. 48:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to give them full pre-publicity. 48:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I was standing there looking at some kind of fruit. 48:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was heard this woman at the table, say, weren't you in the Netflix documentary? 49:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was thinking, oh, here's somebody else who's all the keepers have here come along conversation. 49:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So I looked up and she wasn't looking at me. 49:14 [SPEAKER_02]: She was looking at the man next to me. 49:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, yes, I was. 49:18 [SPEAKER_02]: She said, where am I? 49:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Wood, right? 49:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, yes. 49:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And she said, oh, that's the only documentary I've ever watched on Netflix. 49:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, oh, good, because I don't feel like having a long conversation right now. 49:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody likes to weigh in on their theories and everything. 49:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And I enjoy it too, but I don't like to take a lot of time, something. 49:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So it turned out when I got home, I was like, what's wormwood? 49:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So then I looked it up and sure enough that I was here at Goldwood. 49:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And they live in Frederick, so I guess it wouldn't be unexpected him for him to be down. 49:55 [SPEAKER_01]: At first, people thought it sounded crazy, but only because it sounds very science fiction like, but it was a CIA project. 50:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 50:06 [SPEAKER_01]: To involve Hopkins, and it did involve Edward Arsenal. 50:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It also enveloped the doctor or datric short, the doctor Paul McCue, who testified in the 50:25 [SPEAKER_01]: which now we know is not accurate. 50:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have lots of questions, and I think it's like something that needs to be explored. 50:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So if anybody's listening, that would like to talk to us about the MKUltral project, if you were involved in it, if you think you were a subject, please. 50:45 [SPEAKER_01]: that in touch with Shane's podcast page because this is a real thing and it's very similar to the techniques that Masqua used on his victims. 50:58 [SPEAKER_00]: many people call it conspiracy theory, but I think that it's also important to realize that in the beginning and then in the 90s, when Jean was coming forward with the trial, conspiracy theory is something that often is thrown out there. 51:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was probably being done back then. 51:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, how could this happen? 51:17 [SPEAKER_00]: That sounds like someone just making this stuff. 51:20 [SPEAKER_00]: How could a priest be abusing all these people, but yeah, all this stuff was unbelievable. 51:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So some people took a lot of convincing to understand what was really going on and some people took a lot of convincing just except the possibility that maybe it had something to do with the Stricati. 51:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody loves the Stricati, no one would hurt the Stricati. 51:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that attitude in the beginning also awarded a full investigation because the police were like 52:05 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 52:39 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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