0:01 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 0:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi everybody, this is Jama and this evening I have another really dear friend that I'm in all of one of my best days now for a lot of reasons we have the same opinions about the world, about the country, but she also is an amazing female hero from the keepers and we're going to be interviewing. 0:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Our dear friend, Mill, Hughes, Nip, you will remember little from the keepers as Joseph Maskell's student secretary. 1:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Mill, welcome to the program. 1:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Jamma. 1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So, well, thank you definitely for being on. 1:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We had a discussion in our podcast discussion group on Facebook and it seemed like you were the person that everyone wants to hear from. 1:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Jim had just mentioned how you both are the same person, but are you both also redheaded? 1:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, mine. 1:25 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, mine come down in the box. 1:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much. 1:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see. 1:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Mine's down in the box now too, but I'm in original. 1:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So you all have seen those gorgeous picture from the yearbook. 1:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I will, can you tell us a little bit about your background specifically about your family and where you grew up? 1:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up as one of eight children in a large Irish Catholic family, middle-class family. 1:54 [SPEAKER_02]: We lived in relay, our view desk, eight and a 12 in Maryland. 2:00 [SPEAKER_02]: My dad was a salesman, and my mom was a homemaker. 2:04 [SPEAKER_02]: What differentiated my family was that my oldest brother, Mike, was developmentally and physically disabled. 2:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was that way because he was born on Christmas. 2:17 [SPEAKER_02]: My dad was away at the war and my mom was home alone and she worked at the hospital that she delivered at she came to the hospital with her contraction very close apart and her doctor was at a Christmas party and was drunk. 2:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And back in those days, the doctors might just die with an illness here, and he was 75, they used to give women twilight sleep. 2:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And they also used to cross their legs and sit on them. 2:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And so Mike was the pressure of him trying to be born for 16 hours and no other doctor performing the burr cause Mike's full and developmental disability. 3:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And the doctors told my parents that he would never walk or talk and he would likely die before he was 20. 3:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And they recommended that my parents send them to Rhodeswood, which many people in Maryland know rosewood is a very heinous institution. 3:18 [SPEAKER_02]: My parents didn't do that. 3:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And to Mike did walk, he did talk, he went to school and he lived to be 75. 3:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was also the heart of our family, everything revolved around Mike. 3:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So all of us, except for Mike, attended Catholic school, 3:34 [SPEAKER_02]: grades 1 through 12. 3:36 [SPEAKER_02]: When Chio opened in the six fees, it was close by. 3:39 [SPEAKER_02]: It was state of the yard and all my friends planned to attend. 3:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was thinking this was really going to be a great adventure for me. 3:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Two sisters. 3:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It also went to Kio. 3:49 [SPEAKER_02]: No, my younger went to IND. 3:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Heo did not exist at the time, but she went to IND. 3:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a younger sister and she did go to P.O. 4:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 4:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're a couple years younger than I am, but P.O. 4:05 [SPEAKER_01]: was still a new school when you went there. 4:07 [SPEAKER_01]: What were some of your expectations about going to a new high school in the archdiocese? 4:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought I was an artist at the time and so I was really excited about their art program and I was always a really good student and a very motivated person. 4:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was really looking forward to this brand new great school that was there. 4:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, it was great next door to the voice school. 4:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had a boyfriend that went by was really super psyched to be going to a place that would so well thought of and would so close by. 4:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I really look forward to it. 4:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And so when my freshman year I was the freshman, one of the freshman, whatever the homeschool, the loomble leaders were in the freshman year each one and said that was a good experience. 4:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And what year did you graduate? 5:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you were just a year behind me. 5:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, I didn't think there was that much space when and how did you meet Father Masks? 5:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I had never met him before, but seen him around the corners of the dances. 5:13 [SPEAKER_02]: He was always lurking at the edges with the scale in his face. 5:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But we had no contact. 5:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And then one day, when I was a sophomore, I got a call to the office, and when I went there, they said, jump out of the map, go once to see you. 5:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I went to his office. 5:30 [SPEAKER_02]: He told me that he had been asking faculty and staff for recommendations for a special position that he had, and that they had recommended me. 5:39 [SPEAKER_02]: The position was that of a confidential secretary. 5:43 [SPEAKER_02]: That person would be taking dictation and typing case notes. 5:47 [SPEAKER_02]: one counseling session that he had with students who were often my peers. 5:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Maxwell was the school psychologist and also the chaplain. 5:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He emphasized the secrecy of the work, how trustworthy the person must be that had the position and that person couldn't share what went on with anyone else outside of his office. 6:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I already had two jobs. 6:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I worked in a bingo hall and I worked in the dry cleaners. 6:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And my main goal was to get a car because having eight siblings, there was no way that I was going to ever be able to have any time and either my parents' car. 6:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So I said, yes, immediately, because I was really excited about it, even though I had no idea who I would be working with. 6:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit more about the job that he offered you. 6:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But first of all, what do you think he said to the teachers? 6:40 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you kind of characteristics do you think are articulated that cars, teachers on the faculty to recommend you? 6:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really know as well as I do that the, I was taken a dual track though, I don't know by sophomore year, whether you were really doing that or not, I was typing and taking dictation and I was 16. 7:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the confidentiality was the thing that he kept dressing time and time again, this T-curse thing. 7:08 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming and talking to someone can make all the difference. 7:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 7:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and as little as a couple of days. 7:27 [SPEAKER_00]: You can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 7:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 7:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection and daily group sessions on a variety of topics and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 7:49 [SPEAKER_00]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 7:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 7:59 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 8:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 8:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Start your journey today. 8:14 [SPEAKER_02]: everything about not, and that kind of blew me away, but also make me feel very special. 8:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And as a person that had a sibling, she don't get a lot of opportunity to feel special, especially with a special needs for other because all of the attention of her parent was towards my brother. 8:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So. 8:31 [SPEAKER_02]: That really intrigued me because I thought I was going to have to find out some juicy things, which I did. 8:38 [SPEAKER_02]: But I guess that is where the kinds of things could she be trusted, which she, it's she to kind of person that is privileged or giggly. 8:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And I never was. 8:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't a girl that 8:50 [SPEAKER_02]: with the popular girl that was a pretty serious student and not one for forgetting into any trouble or to just goofing off or anything. 9:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was the thing that I guess they what I said I would do and so they weren't looking for anybody that would gather about what was going on in there. 9:11 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't mind me asking, we're both of your parents living and where they, I know you had a lot of others and gestures where they were able to be involved at all 9:20 [SPEAKER_02]: There was not a lot of involvement in school, and I was extremely independent. 9:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I never asked for help, and I never asked for anybody to get involved in my stuff. 9:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I think what my what made all of my brothers and sisters are very successful. 9:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think why is because we saw how much our parents struggled with their brother. 9:41 [SPEAKER_02]: It was so hard for them to get services for him. 9:45 [SPEAKER_02]: they were among the founding members of Park, which is the Baltimore Association, Richard and Citizen. 9:51 [SPEAKER_02]: There just wasn't anything for Mike at that time. 9:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And just to get him services so that he could walk and things like that, they spent all of their energy on that. 10:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So we were good kids just because to be bad would be to put more on them. 10:08 [SPEAKER_02]: and we didn't want to do that. 10:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was our little, we all understood that we couldn't put more stuff on our parents. 10:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Because they had so much and they were great parents, they were really good parents. 10:20 [SPEAKER_02]: But you looked at how much they struggled with the day to day. 10:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Just taking care of Mike and we saw that all the time because we were there and looked at Mike and Mike had to struggle a lot of the time that we wouldn't do anything that would increase their life in any foot more on them so all of us works 10:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So my parents weren't really involved in school. 10:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And we never gave them an increase in to me, because we were just their self-sufficient. 10:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like Maskel knew everything about everybody. 10:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the family issues or non issues. 11:01 [SPEAKER_02]: To be, I worked at a school, a private school, and you have access to a lot of information. 11:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And given that, we even though he was a chaplain and he was a counselor, as Jamma, he acted more like he was the principal. 11:14 [SPEAKER_02]: like he was in charge. 11:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And so while all those turt and all your files should be confidential, I feel very strongly as like he knew everything was in all of those files. 11:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that one of the reasons why Jean and May were targeted is because we did come from such large family. 11:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And that means that the parents weren't watching as closely as other 11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure he knew that if you were working two other jobs to get a car that you could tell you then, and that you were in dependent. 11:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So, what I'm going to ask you about the job, but only tell us as much as you're comfortable with, or tell them like what happened the first day you were on the job, did you do it in his office, or you had a typewriter, a computer, what exactly happened? 12:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there were no computers those days. 12:09 [SPEAKER_02]: That was in the 60s and so he would dictate and I would take short hand and then I would transcribe it into written notes. 12:17 [SPEAKER_02]: The content became as we moved along, it became 12:22 [SPEAKER_02]: It was often sexual in nature. 12:24 [SPEAKER_02]: The students were experiencing the some kind of sexual issue. 12:28 [SPEAKER_02]: There was incest, an aerial disease, the promiscuity, even beastiality, bruised back, you name it. 12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm here, you're sitting across, you've got a desk in between the two of us, facing him. 12:40 [SPEAKER_02]: He's looking at me, the entire time, I'm taking. 12:44 [SPEAKER_02]: short hand, but I'm going to be this supreme professional and act as if this isn't just like blowing my lid off because it's a 16 year old, I have no experience with any of this. 12:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it took everything I had to act, it's not responded negatively to what he was saying. 13:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And so this was pretty much the way that it went. 13:06 [SPEAKER_02]: There was sometimes that it was just a normal depression or something, but more often than not, there was something sexual and nature going on. 13:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And then he would say sometimes that he would have to take the student to a gynecologist, and that would talk to a Richter, Dr. Christian Richter, because the girl was too frightened to tell her parents, or because the parent was the one of 13:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was never included in anything that he dictated that he communicated to the parent, what was going on. 13:37 [SPEAKER_02]: That was never part of an included in that. 13:41 [SPEAKER_02]: If during the matter, all of the time that I would sit, then he had a typewriter there and I would sit and I would tight. 13:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that at the end of each session, then he would talk to me and he would flatter me and he would make me feel very special like I was just the most fascinating intelligent young in the world and that's if we were to adults talking to one another. 14:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And as time went on, the conversation got more pressing and maybe came more personal. 14:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And he wanted to know about my boyfriend and my sex life and my relationship with my father and my family. 14:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And then he would cast in Ywendo about father, my boyfriend would 100% Irish. 14:25 [SPEAKER_02]: My father is 100% Irish. 14:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So he said that I wanted to have sex with my father because I was had a boyfriend who was red here and my father was red here and they were being the Irish. 14:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So certainly this meant that I wanted to have sex with my father. 14:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know of course then I would pro-cast and we go back and forward and have this very challenging back and forth thing. 14:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Then he did didn't block the test and then he wanted to hypnotize me. 14:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I was being the arrogant little thing I was, but you can hypnotize the you can hypnotize me and because all I'm sure I can. 14:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we go back and forth and I'm sure he did. 15:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But to me, thinking that I'm that smart, it went through that whole thing. 15:05 [SPEAKER_02]: After a while, I remember the early times of air relationship for the first probably six weeks, and then he started to give him a coat. 15:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And the coax won a paper cup and he would get some from his refrigerator and never give me a coat in a can. 15:20 [SPEAKER_02]: He would always give me a coat for some coat in a paper cup. 15:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a big deal to me because being in such a big family, we only had brameless food, the cheap food, that was really cool to have a coat. 15:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I, in retrospect, it didn't, it did not hit me, well, I was going through it, but later it hit me that I had, 15:44 [SPEAKER_02]: at new memories of events when I would get to cope. 15:47 [SPEAKER_02]: There was nothing. 15:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't remember what had transpired when we were in this session when I was getting to cope. 15:56 [SPEAKER_02]: But everything that he talked to me about and the way that he praised me and everything that was... 16:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It was all classic, growing technique, but I, for someone that childhood didn't really receive much attention at home. 16:08 [SPEAKER_02]: The vibrato of how many kids there were there, then it was very effective, and it was pretty memorable. 16:14 [SPEAKER_02]: The coax, I had very few memories of what transpired in the office by virtue of the coax, but, 16:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I do remember being in the car and being transported to Dr. Richter's office and also, I imagine it's Dr. Richter's because I know it is, I'm going somewhere and then I get to a gynecology, going in, definitely in the gynecologist's office. 16:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the car and sometimes I'm with, I have a 16:41 [SPEAKER_02]: with your code on and other times I do not, but I am superfied because there's nothing, I'm not looking at it, I'm not talking to, I'm not looking at the window, my head is on my hands, my eyes are on my hands, which are in my lap and they're on moving. 17:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just staring straight at my hand, one day, 17:05 [SPEAKER_02]: couple of occasions that I can remember doing that, but everything is a haze and I do not look at him or anything else. 17:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And then when I end the kind of colleges office, then I am on the table and I am my theater in the stir-ups, my skirt is up. 17:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And I am looking at myself from up above. 17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: looking down on myself and sometimes they're about a dozen men and other times they're like four or five men. 17:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they're men, but I don't know that they're men, I just think that they're men, and they're all in dark clothing. 17:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And they could be uniforms or they could be 17:51 [SPEAKER_02]: different times because of the variation and where they are the men are placed and how many there are. 18:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's always been a very consistent memory, but I never could figure out where came from or why I was having it. 18:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I just, hey, you're not who where is this, where could it possibly come from? 18:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I never connected with anyone else at school to verify anything, even though Jean and I were friends, there was no connection between her and I as to what anything was happening. 18:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I had no conscious memories of him doing anything to me. 18:35 [SPEAKER_02]: that I could remember until the very last day at school and the very last day of school I am out and as you can on the last day at school everybody gets wild and everybody starts hooting, hollering and they start writing all over 18:49 [SPEAKER_02]: They're blouses and shoes and stuff like that. 18:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm doing all of that. 18:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I get a call to the office and they tell me to go see Father Math. 18:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I get there and he's in front of the desk. 19:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've never seen a new front of the desk. 19:05 [SPEAKER_02]: He's always been behind the desk. 19:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And he gives me a bonus check and I take it and then he starts writing and start saying the loneliness of the priesthood you can never have anyone on and then saying that he looks me. 19:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And then he grabs me and grows me, put the fan on my grass and he starts kissing me, and the one thing that five brothers is good for is fighting back. 19:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I hit him and I get away from him, but not before scratching your face and running out of there. 19:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's the last exchange I ever have with him. 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That was my last day of school. 19:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's perfect. 19:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so, yeah, then I guess it's a couple of days later that's usually not long after that the graduation occurs and that he gave me a special award. 20:04 [SPEAKER_02]: for school service, or something like that. 20:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I go up and he gives me the award and there's that scratch on his face. 20:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was just a very surreal experience. 20:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And not only that, but then I went, I had been in a committed relationship for three years in high school. 20:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And my boyfriend broke up with me right before graduation. 20:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was, had fallen in love with another girl, my senior class. 20:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I go out with my girlfriends to parties, graduation parties, and I have not been out and about forever because I've only been with my boyfriend. 20:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the the teachers in my of my high school meal teachers are in at these parties and they're making out with my girl, my class these parties and I've like, 20:51 [SPEAKER_02]: What the hell is going on? 20:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Not there and did I just have this with the trees, but now these guys that I've had for class are there making out with my classmates? 21:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the world was truly turned upside down for me and just didn't have any idea of what was going on. 21:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And it just started me down a path all of that into just complete chaos for a very long time. 21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I know Shane has some follow-up questions too, but I can I ask you to go back to the job that he gave you. 21:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know how often like in a typical week you would have been in his office and did that mean you'd have to skip class? 21:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it did mean I get to skip class. 21:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I worked as a bingo hall two times two nights a week. 21:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I worked as a dry cleaner once a week and I think I worked for him mostly about it was set up originally for two times a week, but then he would call me out of class, so he could call me out of class at any time, and I could get out of any test and anything by virtue of his state so. 21:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So all of a sudden, my name could come over the left speaker. 22:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was summoned to his work, what just to give dictation. 22:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think anything of it. 22:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can't believe I would such a super girl. 22:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But we're going to do it now with any of it after school. 22:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but with originally set up to be after that home late, okay, when he was dictating these reports to you or whatever they were, was he just like talking off the top of his head or was he looking at notes and did he talk to the gift girl's names? 22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they gave girl names. 22:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember whether he was talking off the top of his head or not because my head was on the shorthand pass. 22:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm looking down at my shorthand pad and not really what he's doing. 22:47 [SPEAKER_02]: But every time I look up, he's looking at me. 22:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do understand. 22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and credit was for you to be hearing things about people that you know that we're going to school there. 22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: That was what the most, the weirdest thing was. 23:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And then my mother and then a bit at some point in time. 23:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And she was really rattled. 23:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And she said, I don't like him. 23:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like the way he looked at you. 23:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want you working for him anymore. 23:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And I got really upset with her. 23:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, I can't believe here. 23:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that, oh, that's just so wrong. 23:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And everything. 23:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And I refused to stop working for him. 23:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So she and I got into a terrible fight over it. 23:25 [SPEAKER_02]: But she was not wrong. 23:27 [SPEAKER_02]: but the one time she managed to really just like this, but that didn't stop me. 23:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And you were determined to get that car. 23:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I was determined, and I didn't get that. 23:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course, mom and her mom have been sighted, right? 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: They did. 23:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 23:46 [SPEAKER_02]: But my mom and I, we conflicted a lot, but she was often right on the money. 23:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So. 23:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Did you ever tell her what was going on at school lunch, the doctor and he died very early, I didn't get the teller and I have an extremely Catholic family and I honestly did not think anybody would believe me everything was so they and there was no one to corroborate and I really didn't think they would believe me. 24:25 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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