0:14 [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking with Jennifer Creen today. 0:17 [SPEAKER_01]: History professor at the University of Southern Indiana. 0:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of my all-time favorite guests. 0:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Jennifer also serves as the school's reference in archives of librarian. 0:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I met Jennifer following a trip to a small town called New Harmony on the Indiana Illinois border. 0:38 [SPEAKER_01]: New Harmony is without a doubt one of the strangest places I've ever been. 0:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Founded by a commune constructed by that commune and then sold to another commune, both of which ultimately failed. 0:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The town, however, almost 200 years later, looks great. 0:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a massive diorama from the colonial era, out in the middle of nowhere in southern Indiana. 1:07 [SPEAKER_01]: When I visited, I was immediately captivated by this unique place. 1:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I reached out to Jennifer shortly afterward to learn more. 1:18 [SPEAKER_01]: The last calm you to own this town was known as the Owenites, led by a wealthy Scottish industrial light, named Robert Owen, and I wanted to know why they ultimately failed. 1:42 [SPEAKER_00]: They failed for a couple of reasons. 1:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though he had been to New Harmony and he knew we were on the frontier, I don't think he truly appreciated that there was not a built-in work force like where he had come from in Scotland. 1:56 [SPEAKER_00]: There weren't a bunch of poor people hanging around looking for factory work. 2:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That just, that just, that was happening in 1824 in southwestern Indiana. 2:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I think he didn't really have a plan. 2:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He had this idea, and of course he had written the book, the new moral world, but I'm not sure he really had an idea how to implement it, which is why things quickly started to degenerate. 2:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he thought he could just come in and say, okay, we're going to do it this way. 2:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And he brought in all these intellectuals and people who came from wealthy families, these are not commoners. 2:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, wait a minute, promise to some lighten it. 2:41 [SPEAKER_00]: You promise to assign specific exploration at the end of your screen deliver. 2:47 [SPEAKER_01]: What strikes you today about New Harmony is just how nice it is. 2:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like it was built with money, and like it has been maintained with money for the last 200 years. 2:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It's small and raw. 3:01 [SPEAKER_01]: But everything feels well-built, preserved. 3:05 [SPEAKER_01]: As you might have guessed, the original commune was religious. 3:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It was based on the personal revelations of a Christian mystic named George Rapp, who may or may not be an ancestor of my wife, who was also from Indiana, and whose maiden name is also Rapp. 3:25 [SPEAKER_01]: More on that later. 3:27 [SPEAKER_01]: When Rapp took his followers to Pennsylvania and sold the town to Owen, a wind did not share this religious foundation, which helped contribute to the communities 3:39 [SPEAKER_00]: In some ways, the early communities had it easy because they had religion. 3:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't think of it a historic group that did not have religion at its core. 3:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So right there, you've got a built-in set of rules, expectations, and a social system. 3:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You could tweak, are we following the 10 commandments or are we focusing on the new testament? 4:03 [SPEAKER_00]: All that kind of stuff. 4:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But you've got a built-in system 4:10 [SPEAKER_00]: and certainly Owen did not have that at all. 4:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you think of for Ligen, it really is the best possible way to run a commune or a cult. 4:22 [SPEAKER_01]: As we all know, it can be used to organize a community and give it a purpose and a common vision for the future. 4:30 [SPEAKER_01]: it ensures that people have common values and can also be used to promise rewards that the calm unit self never has to follow through on because they're in the afterlife. 4:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because your reward isn't heaven, which isn't that different from the Islamic message in some ways too, right? 4:49 [SPEAKER_01]: just a quick note for anyone considering joining a commune. 4:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The most important thing is not so much what the leader's promise, or even what they provide in the short term, so much as what kind of people they are. 5:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Your community will usually only be at successful, as the character of your leaders allows it to be. 5:12 [SPEAKER_00]: The friend who was the survivor from Joem's time she used to say over and over again, no matter how great life is, no matter how wonderful things are going, don't take your eyes off of who's driving the bus, and she goes, that's how she got lost. 5:24 [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't keep her eye on what the leader was actually doing. 5:27 [SPEAKER_00]: She just got caught up and everything that was going around it and just let her brain buzz on that and not really think about the other. 5:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked if Joem's presented himself to his people as a kind of God-like figure. 5:41 [SPEAKER_00]: If you listen to those tapes right before the suicide, he does talk as if he thinks he is, if not God Jesus, the only way to salvation it is through me. 5:53 [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at his earlier years though, the religion was a tool for gemstones. 6:00 [SPEAKER_00]: If he was talking to you, he could pick up on you very quickly as most conmencing, like frankly, they're really good at reading people. 6:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And if he realized you wanted to hear about the Word God, he talked to you about the Word God. 6:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And he turns to you and he sees the Word you're really into as social and justice. 6:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk to you about social and justice. 6:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And in his surnames and the San Francisco and when they were at North and Redwood, he talked about all of those things during the course of the three and four hour surnames. 6:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So everybody got to hear something they needed to hear that manipulation now. 6:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that when I die, I think comfort, who did it? 6:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Peter's always, I think he thought he was God or a demigot, at least. 6:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he ever says that. 6:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But I have the same side where I think he did, but he was transcendent. 6:55 [SPEAKER_00]: His seed was the sacred seed. 6:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That was gonna populate the earth. 7:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, when we talk about father rap and mother Anna, I don't think they used religion as manipulation. 7:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they truly believed in what they were saying and what they were doing. 7:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know, maybe, or I didn't keep it to. 7:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 7:16 [SPEAKER_00]: There's something a little weird about his writings that don't quite, there seems to be that con aspect to it. 7:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you've got Jim Jones, who's an obvious con man, but then you've got, for instance, of idioms. 7:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he truly believed that he was the next Christ, come to say this people. 7:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So one size doesn't fit all, for sure. 7:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But there is something to this if you keep saying a message long enough. 7:43 [SPEAKER_00]: and you keep repeating it, we're seeing it play out in real time today. 7:47 [SPEAKER_00]: You keep hearing something over and over again, eventually you start to believe even though your brain should tell you that's not credible at all. 7:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we get those mixed messages right now. 8:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Come through our media and from our federal government. 8:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And so people go around and so it's not real. 8:06 [SPEAKER_00]: You say that only because you heard somebody say that over and over again on TV, you never want to go see what the actual truth was. 8:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is what Hitler did, too. 8:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he shut off the speaking. 8:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So you couldn't get news other than sanctioning. 8:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked Jennifer, if we should think of Father Rap as a cult leader, 8:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that I would call him a cult leader because you've got to define those charms when he throw them out there, but he did isolate his community. 8:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You weren't allowed to speak English in the community. 8:36 [SPEAKER_00]: There's an isolating factor. 8:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And if your family were not harmonious, they could come and visit. 8:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like Jim Jones, where he did keep people literally away. 8:47 [SPEAKER_00]: People could come and visit, but you had to stay at the tavern, you couldn't stay in 8:55 [SPEAKER_00]: and you had to prove yourself in order to become a member. 8:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's that isolating factor right there. 9:00 [SPEAKER_00]: They set a very set rules. 9:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked how potential members might prove themselves. 9:07 [SPEAKER_00]: by showing that you could follow the community rules. 9:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So there are stories of people who stayed like a new harmony at the tavern, the harmonist had a tavern there. 9:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And he stayed there for a member's name, I'll send you the article. 9:21 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all about whiskey, but he does go off on the side thing. 9:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And he stayed there for six or eight months before he showed the community that he could accept. 9:30 [SPEAKER_00]: their rules and be part of the community. 9:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can just walk in to the harmonists who say I want to be a harmonist. 9:39 [SPEAKER_00]: You had to show yourself worthy of being a harmonist. 9:43 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I've heard from many communities is the requirement to give all of your possessions to the community when you join. 9:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned this to Jennifer as something that always struck me as an immediate red flag. 9:58 [SPEAKER_00]: The modern communities that I go to today, the modern communes are visited today, not even the farm down in Tennessee makes you give up everything and more. 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: The place is practice that true communalism. 10:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Now they didn't harm us. 10:14 [SPEAKER_00]: They gave up everything to be a harmonist. 10:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You gave up everything to be a shrinker, but you didn't do that for owns community. 10:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Although they had dorms for single people, 10:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So they practice communal living, but not necessarily communal assets, which may be another reason why, oh, in fail. 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: From what I could tell, the ONites failed for the opposite reason of so many other communal groups. 10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Rather than isolating themselves, to the point where they lose all their relevance, and cease to exist. 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: The ONites more just melted into the surrounding population. 10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I suggest this to Jennifer, along with the idea that new harmonies idea of communal ownership may have been healthier, or fairer. 11:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. 11:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Although there was an interesting study or anthropologist out here did looking at the houses in New Harmony when the harmonious were there, who had brick houses? 11:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And who had wood houses? 11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And where were those in relationship to the other things that were happening in the community? 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And it couldn't make any definitive conclusions because we're talking about a very short time and we really only have one really good map from when the harmonious were there, but we know father rap had a very fancy house and it looks like several of the big leading community members had brick houses. 11:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas your normal harmonious grouping would have been wood, and they do seem to be strategically placed around the church, which was the center of the town under the harvest. 11:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is the big field right across from the WMI. 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: We're Santa Perfect, WI and turn it look the other way that big field that was when it church that the harmonious church that. 12:10 [SPEAKER_00]: The door way, it's a replica. 12:11 [SPEAKER_00]: They actually do have the original doorway. 12:14 [SPEAKER_00]: What stands in that park today is a replica. 12:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Even in communes, people need hierarchy. 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We need social mobility or the possibility of it. 12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Or else we get bored. 12:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, there's still social mobility. 12:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just playing out in a very different way than we're accustomed to seeing it. 12:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And our core we're hurting most, and hurt animals to have hierarchy. 12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: We naturally seek patterns, and whether people would admit it or not, they love routine. 12:45 [SPEAKER_00]: People love routine. 12:46 [SPEAKER_00]: They can argue that there are, and of course, we all have our routines. 12:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Every last one of us can. 12:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So it had to play out somehow, maybe that's why the harmonious managed to stay together as long as they did, because they recognized that on some level. 13:01 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they tried labor currency. 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: That was Josiah Warren who started the first labor store. 13:07 [SPEAKER_00]: That was in her own, where you could give a chip for a few hours of working in the field for X number of supplies. 13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't ever really pan out very well? 13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked for an example. 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I would go to the store in New Harmony and I would say I need seed for planting and the store owner would say, okay, a five pound bag of seed is going to cost you four hours of labor, I buy the four pound seed and then their owner calls me up and says, okay, my corns coming in, you owe me four hours of the field or I'm building a barn, you owe me four hours of labor to come and help me build my barn. 13:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And the idea was that you would exchange goods on this labor basis. 13:52 [SPEAKER_01]: This is just a return to a very primitive labor economy. 13:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You're cutting out the middleman. 13:59 [SPEAKER_01]: You still have currency. 14:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Your time and labor become your money. 14:04 [SPEAKER_00]: except that you still need currency. 14:07 [SPEAKER_00]: The community itself was not self-sufficient. 14:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Even the harmonists in New Harmony were not self-sufficient. 14:12 [SPEAKER_00]: If you wanted coffee or tea, you're not getting it from around here. 14:16 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want sugar, now we had honey, obviously, but if you want sugar, not coming from around here. 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: and no one outside the community is going to accept man hours or labor as currency, good luck buying your coffee or anything else that wasn't grown or produced on site. 14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 14:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess the honest still play that out a little bit in their lives. 14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't live in the close communities like they used to they're actually spread out now. 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But they still go over and hook each other 14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I suggest this is more of an ongoing mutual obligation, rather than a transactional exchange. 14:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so. 14:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is more that way than transactional. 15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Although you could look at it as transactional. 15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I help you build your bar. 15:06 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to help you build my bar. 15:07 [SPEAKER_00]: We're all going to help him build his bar. 15:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's going to come help us. 15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone who's ever helped a friend move knows exactly how quickly things change. 15:16 [SPEAKER_01]: When that person knows shows when it's time to help you. 15:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Things get transactional quick. 15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We feel we're owed a favor by that person of equal or greater value. 15:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then it all starts to pull apart. 15:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And in Oland's community, I know we're jumping around. 15:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And Oland's community, there was supposed to be classless, but it wasn't. 15:37 [SPEAKER_00]: There were people who came with wealth, and the Oland's, they built a really fancy house. 15:41 [SPEAKER_00]: They moved in Rap's house for a while, and the David Dale Oland builds the laboratory. 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Oland's house, is that the huge mansion? 15:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually next to probably what you're thinking of. 15:52 [SPEAKER_00]: The huge mansion behind the brick wall, that's, I think, from a clear house. 15:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the Owen Laboratories was right next to us. 16:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Hard to see if this time of year comes to the trees. 16:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Hard to see the Owen Lab. 16:04 [SPEAKER_00]: If you did a tour of the Granary, they take up in the second floor and you can look down on that. 16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, cool. 16:10 [SPEAKER_00]: On the lab, because this first lab was in the Granary. 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about the lab, the lab, the lab. 16:16 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a geologist. 16:18 [SPEAKER_00]: David Deelo and it was a geologist, and he also did a lot of surveying. 16:24 [SPEAKER_00]: He was part of surveying the Minnesota west constant, and I don't know. 16:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 16:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's point at science tradition comes in through the lens. 16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's not certainly not the harvest. 16:36 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about labor, so in the harvest community, you were assigned your jobs according to the leaders of the community. 16:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But again, you have to work with the outside world. 16:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So they had a tavern, and they sold whiskey. 16:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the harmonists did not drink hard liquor. 16:54 [SPEAKER_00]: They're German, so they drank beer and wine. 16:57 [SPEAKER_00]: but they didn't drink liquor. 16:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yet they produced lots of whiskey as most of the Midwest did, because we had all this corn. 17:06 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just going bad. 17:07 [SPEAKER_00]: We had to figure out something to do with it and so whiskey comes into the picture. 17:11 [SPEAKER_00]: They made a lot of money selling whiskey. 17:13 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, they sold a bunch of it to hold Shawnee town. 17:15 [SPEAKER_00]: They know what I'm doing. 17:16 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the best, most sustainable products I've ever heard come out of a community like this. 17:23 [SPEAKER_01]: The best part about it is that in Indiana you have more corn than you know what to do with. 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So the corn they used was basically free. 17:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And whiskey stays good forever unlike beer. 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Here goes bad, your mask goes bad, to dump it. 17:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So on the positive side, the harmonious, pretty slow. 17:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That was actually one of the biggest things that they sold. 17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It was that they made him for it. 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And that got shipped all the way back to Europe. 17:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So did some of their wine is my understanding and then later the silk production comes on board. 17:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And my understanding is that kind of boom didn't harm me. 18:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But the real silk business comes when they get back to old account when they moved to old account. 18:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Because the harmonious went to harmony Pennsylvania first. 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think they went there. 18:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was right before the 1800s to check my dates. 18:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Then they moved to New Harmony. 18:16 [SPEAKER_00]: In Indiana, in 1814, when we're still just part of the territory, because Western Pennsylvania had just become too populated, it's hard to say it up in the straight face, it's not very populated today. 18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So, they wanted to get away from that influence, but they needed to be able to support themselves, so they had to stay on the river so they could ship their goods back. 18:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So wine and rope, and then later whiskey. 18:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Although I don't think whiskey was really shipped as much as it was sold probably more locally, they may have shipped some down to New Orleans, but I don't see much record of that. 18:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like they were producing whiskey where they could trade with other villages around here, which means they weren't aging their whiskey either. 18:57 [SPEAKER_00]: probably very long. 18:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And the shakers we talked about them, they were seed merchants. 19:03 [SPEAKER_00]: They sold seeds. 19:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And the heritage collection we hear about today, the heritage to many of these and this that me other, I would imagine many of those seeds came from the shakers. 19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: The shakers went out and collected wildflower seeds, not just vegetables and plants in your garden, but botanical seeds across 19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: and they preserved, and then when they traded them, that was one of their big operations. 19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Those ones, they're seeded as well. 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Which today we ought to be really thankful that the shakers came along and did that. 19:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It was already lost so much from that time here, but there's a lot we still have. 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I had a couple of questions for you. 19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about products that they had. 19:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, something that caught me that was very unique that I had never heard about from a community like this is they sold their towns, sold their two towns. 19:55 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't, so New Harmony wasn't a town when they bought the lake. 19:58 [SPEAKER_00]: They built the town and then they sold buildings and everything to Robert Owen. 20:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But when they go back to old economy, at one point they are on it, it's got to be like at least a third of Ohio, they own a dozen or more towns, they own oil, lines, they own train lines, they're very industry. 20:21 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I assume that they're selling these at a profit for lots of new purchase. 20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So could that be considered a product that helped make them successful for so long? 20:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, although I don't know that would have been. 20:33 [SPEAKER_00]: My understanding is they would buy a town in Ohio. 20:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they wanted to control the train or the oil or whatever product it was there and they wanted to be able to micromanage how things went so they made their money by selling the products through that town and then sold the town, but probably that's not where the big profit kid the big profit came in the products they sold while they owned the town. 21:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know how many they sold because when they finally break up, that's part of what takes so long to probate their state. 21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Is they own all of this completely entirely entire town? 21:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Now another thing that I noticed being in New Harmony is they had an example of what their daily schedules were quite very strict schedule. 21:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 21:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know modern day, we teach the strict schedules can help, especially when you raise kids. 21:34 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a trouble child who gets into trouble, drugs, whatever it could be, a judge may send them to a facility or you may be assigned to a social worker. 21:42 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the first things they'll try to do is put them on a strict schedule. 21:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So, at the time, when New Harmony was doing this very strict 21:54 [SPEAKER_01]: that practice could be with raising children? 21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes and no. 21:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was certainly known that the harmonists, and again, the shakers, had a very similar, very strict routine to the way they live their lives, but children were raised communally. 22:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So 22:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It wouldn't have been a direct, it might have been a consequence that these kids grew up with a better sense of stability because of that might have been a byproduct of their routine because I feel that their routine was all part of that spiritual cleansing and the ideas that the whole community goes together, we all go to heaven together. 22:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is what we've all got to do in order to get there as a one group. 22:42 [SPEAKER_00]: They probably did not see it in that kind of an altruistic version that we would see it today. 22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Another question, modern day. 22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that anyone who is looking to rise to power of any kind, they will try to surround themselves or interact with other people of power, it gives them a legitimacy. 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Would leaders for communities like that do the same thing to want to establish their community because if I'm hanging out with Josh Mo, who 23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: is a big wallmaker that might make me look like a bigger leader or someone who hangs up the leaders. 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever seen that in other communities? 23:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I have not seen that with the harmonious. 23:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 23:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I told you they were politically active. 23:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Father Rap was very interested in the way Indiana was developing. 23:36 [SPEAKER_00]: in the harmless community to card in helping to shape us and the first couple of phases of state her. 23:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, after we achieve state her. 23:45 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was more for what they could gain out of it more than any reflective glory. 23:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that Father Rap thought that if he contributed lots of money and kept the community in the eyes of the legislators, he could get them to leave them alive. 24:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Let him run his little corner of the pocket the way he wants to. 24:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So that influence would more been personal and internal to the survival of the community, rather than what he would gain from that. 24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the way I would see that. 24:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Next week, Jennifer will return, and we will learn more about the harmonious. 24:27 [SPEAKER_01]: including where they went after leaving New Harmony. 24:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for joining me today. 24:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope you have a great week.
Show full transcript (277 segments)
