0:11 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Today, Jim and we are joined by Mike and Mike, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? 0:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, I'm my name, Mike, and I work with the federal government and the behavior detection department. 0:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say what agent the I work at, but the rather large agency and I just rather not mention it. 0:50 [SPEAKER_02]: But I've been with them since 2008. 0:53 [SPEAKER_02]: been doing it for quite some time. 0:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really interesting and we thought a lot about what we saw in the keepers and a lot of good stuff. 1:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in Boston by an Irish family. 1:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Catholic went to the Catholic elementary schools, went to the Catholic high schools. 1:11 [SPEAKER_02]: My dad, he worked, huge jobs, hardworking guy, you call a 1:15 [SPEAKER_02]: and my mom did as well. 1:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was very important back then to go to the Catholic school. 1:22 [SPEAKER_02]: There was expect of you, especially with your from an Irish family. 1:25 [SPEAKER_02]: A dad would drill it into us. 1:27 [SPEAKER_02]: You are going to go to the Catholic school and you are going to do well. 1:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And if we didn't do well, then we got the repercussions of the month of the strap. 1:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I was quite did growing up in the Catholic school, and I was also left handed. 1:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I was, let's just say, this is a plunder lot for being that, because the belief back then in the school I went to was, if you were left handed, that was the instrument of the devil. 1:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And that last hand was not going to be used. 1:51 [SPEAKER_02]: They were to take off my neck by during class and tie my back. 1:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they would beat my hand, because I couldn't write, allegedly, with my right hand. 2:00 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I've been made up of. 2:01 [SPEAKER_02]: These were the nuns, by the way, the sisters they chose to, and I can relate that had a huge and saying, I think it was taught by the sacred system of misery, or something like that, and it was very similar, but by doing all that, I'm 2:16 [SPEAKER_02]: youth by the non-siddically, I can't compare myself, not even thanks to what the people like in the cheapest were subjected to, not even close. 2:25 [SPEAKER_02]: The Catholic culture, I totally understand that it was really brutal at time. 2:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And there were one instance when I was walking to sleep and I was so terrified that I didn't study for a map. 2:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was only in fifth break. 2:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So I turned around. 2:41 [SPEAKER_02]: It was snowing out, and I turned around and told my friends, I forgot my book, and I went back to my house, and it was locked up, everyone was at work. 2:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So I hurled behind the garage in a snowstorm, and luckily my mom got home and worked really that day. 2:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And she saw my book print, and she went behind the garage, and she went back there, and there I was crying terrified. 3:01 [SPEAKER_02]: He asked me what was wrong, and I told her, 3:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And the next day, she said, the next, tomorrow we're going up to the theater. 3:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And my mom was that type of woman who wasn't going to take it anymore. 3:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So she marks me up there to be up to the mother's period office. 3:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Had me sit outside her office. 3:17 [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't make an appointment. 3:19 [SPEAKER_02]: My mom was a smoker. 3:21 [SPEAKER_02]: She had a smoke going on going that day as we went into the school. 3:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was ultimately her demise because she died of lung cancer a few years back. 3:30 [SPEAKER_02]: She was great. 3:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I really miss her. 3:34 [SPEAKER_02]: We've opened the door to the Mother Superior's office and she was sitting behind her desk in my mom. 3:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But both hands on her desk, being told that took the biggest drag of her cigarette and blew it in Fista Superior's face and said, if you ever touched my son again, if you ever beat him for being a left-hand because his dad's left-hand and left-hander is grand final. 3:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Once a left-hander, and if you ever touch him again, send father up here and you gotta stand from my lawyer. 4:03 [SPEAKER_02]: and she grabbed me by the hand, and off we went. 4:06 [SPEAKER_02]: After that it kind of died down again, but after a few months it picked right back up again. 4:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And because it's day, I'll filter a nun somewhere in town, or whatever, or have got an airport, and I get this nauseous feeling in, like, I'd start getting all these strapped unbelievable. 4:22 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, like I said, it was a culture and that it was accepted, it was accepted almost by the parents, but not by my mom at that point. 4:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I moved on to Catholicites, and caught by the French disc in Prius. 4:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a total male height, and they wore the ropes. 4:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was this one brother who was notorious he had a three inch bolt at the end of his rope. 4:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you were taking a tent and you'd go and fight for some reason, not necessarily to be a neighbor dancers, but and he saw you that boat was gonna whack you up side to head. 4:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And you were gonna be bleeped and many kids. 5:00 [SPEAKER_02]: let out that interning class and got lots of things all over the tech. 5:04 [SPEAKER_02]: There was unbelievable. 5:06 [SPEAKER_02]: It was quite the experience that this plan in one gentleman gave one of the brothers, lip one day one of the students asked him to steam in the coat room and you heard walk his smashing and he came out with a bloody nose, bloody lip and a black guy. 5:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing was said, he just sat down in his deep and what about his date? 5:24 [SPEAKER_02]: It was incredible and by still. 5:27 [SPEAKER_02]: my wife can tell you I can still get a little emotional when I talk about it. 5:31 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, and I was way back in 1960, and I went to grade school from 65 to and to the early 70s in high school. 5:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And I got out and went to college and off I went, didn't like it. 5:44 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't me. 5:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I joined the United States Navy. 5:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I did six years of active duty, 5:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I went overseas to the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean, the Persian Gulf Bureau of Operations, and one particular appointment, we were over there for seven months, and we were on a way back home, and they said, oh, we have to be diverted to a little island called Grenader, and we're going to be heading down there, though we took part in that operation down. 6:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you guys remember that, but it was back in the 80s. 6:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Mike, I do. 6:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the older. 6:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm older than everybody else in the world. 6:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I went to Catholic school to a great school. 6:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can vouch for some of what you said. 6:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the rulers with the metal they edge. 6:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, yeah, that metal edge was used in a lot of knuckles. 6:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that. 6:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know. 6:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I'd go to the chalkboard, also to bring this. 6:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I forgot to mention this. 6:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I was left handed again, but they would take my hand with the piece of chalk in it and just continuously beat it against the flake chalkboard. 6:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Continue it. 6:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was this girl in my class and she raised her hand to go to the ladies room and we were doing a test and they said no, you can't get up so you're done with the test and she literally urinated in her chair and they made her sit there for 45 minutes in it. 7:07 [SPEAKER_02]: didn't let her go in a numerous instances like that. 7:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just, it was not breaking when you think back on it as a kid you would terrified, but as a mental now you like, like, gosh, I can't believe I survived that. 7:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That explains why you went into behavior detection, huh? 7:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know what's coming. 7:26 [SPEAKER_02]: But so yeah, I went out of the Navy and I started my own business, I did finish cop and treat. 7:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I did pretty well and then when the downturn and the economy came in 2008, I needed to find a job with benefits that like really couldn't afford it anymore. 7:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And then kind of coincided with 9-11. 7:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, I want to do, I'm too old to go back in the military. 7:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to do something, help my country, protect my country. 7:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So I started an ad for an entry, love a petition for the tribal government, and this shirt and agency. 8:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So I applied, I had my, I was on to be discharged better, and I don't know if you know when you apply for federal jobs, if you did prime military service, you get a preference just so if you have to take a test. 8:12 [SPEAKER_02]: you get five points above everyone else. 8:14 [SPEAKER_02]: If I got a nine year and another guy got an idea, I would be third, you can land this five extra point. 8:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So I got accepted into the agency. 8:22 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't the behavior detection right away. 8:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I was working for a few years, and then all of a sudden, and then, and all of a sudden, but I applied the disposition and the behavior detection analysis. 8:35 [SPEAKER_02]: But when I applied to that, I was accepted to the testing and all that, and got sent away to train out NLA. 8:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, once I got my certification and all that, and I did all the training, I went to the federal law enforcement training center as an evaluator for a new behavior detection program, 8:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was down there for a while doing that. 9:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And then this program has evolved a lot over the years. 9:04 [SPEAKER_02]: There's new new thing that a new subject about it and the added, but it's actually modeled, Haken, I don't know. 9:12 [SPEAKER_02]: You probably know about how the Israelis do it. 9:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Israel is the world. 9:17 [SPEAKER_02]: renowned for their behavior detection, their amazing, and they, this one gentleman brought it, worked with the Israelis for many years, and took down, learned their program, and they brought it to the key products that you had to introduce to the federal government, and they piloted the program, actually Boston was the first place to pilot the program. 9:41 [SPEAKER_02]: He told it, it worked, it's scientific base, it works, I've seen it, I've myself have caught people who are up to suspicious activity, everything including free terrorist activity, drugs, and child pornography to all kinds of stuff. 10:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And just based on their behaviors, just watching and observing them and getting to a threshold, 10:06 [SPEAKER_02]: That's when we pull them wherever we observe the map, wherever it may be a public venue, an airport, marathon of any public event, fireworks displays, stuff like that. 10:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll find out. 10:21 [SPEAKER_02]: They'll be carrying back, but they sometimes can't find things in their bag to leave can find these people just based on their behaviors and what they're up to. 10:29 [SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty amazing. 10:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's bread, the different agency of the cross, the across the country, at that point. 10:35 [SPEAKER_02]: They all though did some training in a read and institute, the interrogation and interview. 10:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Really great program that they go around the country and teach local, local, law enforcement about behavior detection. 10:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was funny, we were in class. 10:52 [SPEAKER_02]: We went, we go to it to get pressure training. 10:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And the instructors will save us the laugh. 10:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And you guys, all you large boys, we guys, probably don't know about these guys. 11:03 [SPEAKER_02]: They're out there and you can be in any public venue or any transportation venue cruise ship terminals, subways, rail stations, and they're watching you for any indicated they can observe. 11:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're showing signs of stress, 11:19 [SPEAKER_02]: fear, deception, they're going to pick it up and he's guys, my favorite guys. 11:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't all you guys, he's guys, my favorite. 11:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's pretty cool to hear that from this like world famous read and student into your interrogation. 11:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I continue to do it to this day. 11:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I love what I do and it really worked. 11:38 [SPEAKER_02]: The great thing and I can even use it on my white 11:42 [SPEAKER_02]: just the other day. 11:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I said, did you pay that electric bill and she was in the kitchen and she wouldn't make eye contact with Michigan down fidgeting with everything. 11:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you didn't pay it did you? 11:52 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I didn't pay me. 11:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I got her right handed. 11:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He intercepted. 11:58 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's interesting. 12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That is fascinating. 12:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I was like 50 years younger and could go into that field. 12:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my gosh. 12:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I would that sounds. 12:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I never even knew that I guess I knew that people were trained in that, but I never knew that it actually had a name behavior detection. 12:25 [SPEAKER_02]: security, that people are out there, especially at live public events, where there's numerous people and someone's up to no good wants to do something bad to a large number of people. 12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It's good to have those people in place watching for it. 12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: life can get overwhelming, and talking to someone can make all the difference. 12:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help, the sponsor of this episode, make starting therapy simple. 12:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Complete a short questionnaire and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist, and as little as a couple of days, you can connect by message, phone or video, from wherever you feel comfortable. 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, 13:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help include a journal for personal reflection, and daily group sessions on a variety of topics, and they accept each essay and FSA cards. 13:19 [SPEAKER_00]: with over 2,000,000 users, and a 4. star rating on trust pilot. 13:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Better help is a trusted platform for accessible mental health care. 13:29 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think you could benefit from therapy, visit betterhelp.com, choose our podcast during sign-up, and get 10% off your first month. 13:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of your mental health is a sign of strength. 13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Start your journey today. 13:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So Mike, we're going to have you use your education knowledge and experience because we would like to know what all information you you've learned by watching the interviews that are shared in the keepers. 13:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So for listeners out there that are listening, we are going to give you time stamps so that you can watch the certain specific parts of the keepers that we're going to be discussing. 14:12 [SPEAKER_00]: So, at those points in time, you're going to be able to pause the podcast if you would like to watch that before we discuss it. 14:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So, Mike, let's go ahead and jump in and tell me about the first timestamp and what happens in that scene. 14:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to blame to view as what actually is depth and what we look for and where we're going to be like people. 14:36 [SPEAKER_02]: So, the hated 14:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Every person out there have the baseline of the way they act every day of their lives. 14:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Aside from being stressed out about going or meeting or whatever that is, your normal baseline, how you act. 14:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Deviation, that's what we look for. 14:52 [SPEAKER_02]: We look for an deviation, that's a change, a change from a person's baseline. 14:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And they can show this through numerous ways. 15:00 [SPEAKER_02]: They can show it through Michael Baschel, Michael Baschel's one, 15:06 [SPEAKER_02]: expression on their state, they can show the signs of contempt, they can show, I don't want to be talking to you, but I'll, bad, they can show guilt, they can show deception, there's all types of Michael Facial, and they're very hard to block, but they're really quick. 15:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them are easy to spot people, depends on the person if they keep it on their face, long enough. 15:24 [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, like what someone looks at the right, the eyebrows go out, the mouth opens a little, their eyes are wide, that's what a Michael Facial is. 15:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And these behaviors, the indicators that we look for stress, fear, and section, they can't be controlled. 15:41 [SPEAKER_02]: You can think you can control them, sorry, can control them, but you cannot. 15:47 [SPEAKER_02]: We call somewhere on your body, either in voluntary response to these situations. 15:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Somewhere on your body, they're going to leak out and in the department and the trade we call is leakage. 16:01 [SPEAKER_02]: some way, you can try to hold beat them, but I'm wearing on your body, whether it's through your eye, through your foot, through your feet, through your hand, anywhere, through your breathing, they're gonna come out. 16:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can't stress them out. 16:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll hide it is to spot them, I've been had the training and easy to be now up to so many years. 16:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I know people in your audience will probably question, 16:26 [SPEAKER_02]: probably got to be a lot of, I'm not a detective. 16:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not an investigator. 16:31 [SPEAKER_02]: My job is to spot easy indicated, to spot them and then move forward. 16:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And if it involves getting them involved with barn, horsemen are a detective, that's greater than that'll progress that way. 16:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And my job is to get 16:49 [SPEAKER_02]: this story, what they're up to. 16:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know it's going to be a lot of arms here and bestigated out there. 16:55 [SPEAKER_02]: They know that because he's only, because he's nervous, but trust me, I know what's Nick for and I know what it's like, I give it. 17:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's not relevant because he's not being asked a question. 17:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I've done it like I said for a long time. 17:10 [SPEAKER_02]: and the government uses it because it works and I know it's okay. 17:14 [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of those who explain that, that's what we look for and that basically a person's ideation from their normal behavior, the normal dealing activity, the human body, and not hiding, cannot. 17:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's it, that explains that that's pretty much what I do, so you can move on to episode one. 17:32 [SPEAKER_02]: It involves very clear, very who-betty team, 17:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Emotions has had no, well, thing, it was the typically day at the retreat house. 17:46 [SPEAKER_02]: There have been messages, there's not match the physical gesture. 17:50 [SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the indicators that we look for. 17:52 [SPEAKER_02]: You can answer a yes question, but your head will be the nodding. 17:55 [SPEAKER_02]: No, well, vice versa, but he does that. 17:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So I caught that and saying, so basically, you might lick it, they know it wasn't a typical day, but he's nodding. 18:08 [SPEAKER_02]: and shaking his head no and but thing it was typical what he's saying something wasn't I don't know what crit hailed. 18:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just telling you guys what I observed through him. 18:19 [SPEAKER_02]: That a class that's one about deception in the case. 18:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So the next one is that 1933 in the 18:29 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the net that really indicate up, but I wanted to if you didn't understand it's kind of a gray area too. 18:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think anybody knows the answer, but I'd look, they listen to sister romping 45 minutes to her now. 18:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was just wondering, what did they talk about that long? 18:42 [SPEAKER_02]: We can move on to at 3958 on the episode, episode one, we're still on episode one. 18:50 [SPEAKER_02]: The guy mentioned this to Jim earlier, the way he 18:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Shaked her hand, the rigid posture, and very stiff way he was going about it, just says, I don't want to get too close. 19:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to tell you anything. 19:03 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a sign. 19:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a standoff sign. 19:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want you to beat it. 19:08 [SPEAKER_02]: It's what you've been with that body language, but I'll be college or shake your hand, but I'm very uncomfortable. 19:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm stressed out. 19:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be asked any questions and just let's get this over with. 19:19 [SPEAKER_02]: But at 3958, you can see that. 19:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And Jemba, you said you were nervous, right? 19:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Not nervous, but I didn't know when I know about him now, when I met him, but I, what I really didn't trust him from the beginning, his wife was hating every second of us being there. 19:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, really? 19:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, physically. 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Like she's not in the episode, but she was not a happy camper at all. 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I was more trying to be his comfort level was more important than mine because I knew why I was there. 19:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense? 19:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 19:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 19:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 19:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It's another one at 454. 20:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And this one's pretty good. 20:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It's called Holy specific details. 20:08 [SPEAKER_02]: When he described type of dump that 20:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Like he went into way too much detail. 20:14 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a small, it was a big, like it was a place where you burned a pretty, it was a place where you dump household items. 20:20 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no needs, no all that information. 20:23 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the fact that it was a dump. 20:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, and an overly specific response like that is another sign, a new cater of deception. 20:30 [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted you to believe that, oh yeah, there's no big deal, it's a dump. 20:34 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, 20:35 [SPEAKER_02]: and I can describe it for you because I know everything and I think like the nice guy I'm going to explain what it looked like and I'm only specific so we're telling us too much information. 20:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's just trying to, he's trying to, when we, when someone's always at the big poster backing detail, I keep it there. 20:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, I was just a dumb. 20:58 [SPEAKER_02]: What kind of dumb? 20:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Then you ask those questions, but he just laid it all out where no one could ask was new it is small, all done, as old a priest, but it's what people burn stuff. 21:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Why do we need to know that? 21:09 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no need. 21:10 [SPEAKER_02]: We just try to be deceptiveness, deal your way, give you the small man for that. 21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So theception class, the other thing I can add that did not show up in the keepers is that when our director set to him, what do you think of all these young girls who are saying they were abused by the same priest, he said, I don't believe it, and our director Ryan White said, why would they all 21:34 [SPEAKER_01]: make up the same story. 21:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said teenagers, they like attention. 21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The listeners or the viewers didn't see that when he just came out with, there were no magnets or anything, he was not asked about that. 21:50 [SPEAKER_01]: That came out of the blue. 21:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And we had seen the autopsy and I was yelling he has to, 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: was on the record and I'm thinking, well, I just needed that volunteering that being always specific again. 22:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Like we didn't ask you that, but you've going to hit it. 22:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So. 22:13 [SPEAKER_02]: not a sign of deception. 22:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And at 41, oh, 41, 23, he's doing what we call the self-gooting gesture. 22:22 [SPEAKER_02]: He's holding a thumb, rubbing it gently. 22:24 [SPEAKER_02]: That indicates stress. 22:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It's being asked questions. 22:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have exactly the question he was asked, but that time stamps. 22:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So you'll be able to be him doing that. 22:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a stress in the theater. 22:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't want to be there. 22:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So he's trying 22:39 [SPEAKER_02]: by doing a calming gesture or a self-suding gesture. 22:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's one of those who's rubbing your arm like that, a grabbing on it, kind of a half-crushed chest type thing. 22:50 [SPEAKER_02]: You just got the warm arm already, he's kind of rubbing his arm, text big, I give stress and decay to it. 22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So he didn't want it. 22:58 [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't want it to be asking these questions, so he's basically just calming himself down. 23:03 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great catch Mike. 23:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So what you're saying is him rubbing his arm was that just because he was uncomfortable with the questions being asked, is that your opinion is exactly filled it next one and I hate they died it because now disrespect anyone or any of the survivors of these people that they'll remember joining, but this one. 23:26 [SPEAKER_02]: This one was, do my mind when I started, and I hate to use the word a lot, but text them because it is called, memory, reanimation, what memory reanimation is when you're telling about a crime that was committed, you're actually acting it out. 23:44 [SPEAKER_02]: you're telling it like another person did it, but you're making the motion that you caught and described. 23:51 [SPEAKER_02]: When's canal, and let me just read, let me just reference them thought of one of our things we have. 23:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And the interrogators should be sure to keep an eye on with subjects hands when he begins to describe the crime, the crime or the crime's theme, his alibi or an alibi. 24:07 [SPEAKER_02]: In case of some subject at this point, 24:15 [SPEAKER_02]: The interviewer should not be surprised to see a subject inadvertently re-enact what he did with a weapon or action during the commission of a crime. 24:24 [SPEAKER_02]: The interviewer may see the subject re-enact the drawing of a gun, the stabbing with a knife, choking actions with the hand and I was behaving. 24:34 [SPEAKER_02]: So what the now did when he's sitting in that SUV, he was talking about the condition of the body and all that, and that she had been there for a while. 24:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It's he made the motion. 24:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He made the motion of stripping down the top. 24:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He made that motion. 24:53 [SPEAKER_02]: He can feel his hands going up and like he did. 24:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So my belief, my opinion, I believe that canal was probably helped to stage this crime scene after they moved it all the first time, I don't know, but he made that motion in a classic memory reanimation. 25:15 [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't know what he was doing, he was telling it, and he just made the motion. 25:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you watched that at 4227, 25:24 [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the best indicators of skin health involved, I think, in my opinion, and what he did, how he was involved in it. 25:32 [SPEAKER_02]: It's in voluntary. 25:33 [SPEAKER_02]: You can't help but your body just does it. 25:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Reanimate thing in your people being, people being interviewed are interrogated, making dabbing motion, like the book said, choking motions, punching someone, they're not saying they did it, but they're subconscious as let you know that. 25:50 [SPEAKER_02]: get it or have a pot and it's pretty amazing that one up. 25:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Mike, with you picking that up from him reenacting, would you theorize that maybe he had some involvement in positioning her there? 26:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. 26:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, I have to keep saying that my opinion, him doing that and all the other indicators I picked up on is a couple more as we may be wrapping up episode one soon, but there's a couple more. 26:20 [SPEAKER_02]: But absolutely, I think he knew whether he helped stage Kathy after the first time when Matthew brought Gene there or the second time when they actually left her at the dump. 26:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe that they wanted it to look like she was 26:36 [SPEAKER_02]: and they pulled their tongue down and whatever paint their skirt up or whatever they did. 26:41 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I believe, because it's just memory animation. 26:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just right there when I believe he definitely had a planet because he he knew mask and he uses buddy and he was probably one of his lean up guy and there's a couple more of them. 26:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in my guy, I just want to add really quick here. 26:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And you talk about this, Gemma and I, we've discussed this case in detail many times. 27:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know for a fact that both of us have talked before about how Kathy's was found. 27:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Kathy was found with her top down. 27:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But now that you mentioned how he was making that movement, I've never seen this and I've never done it. 27:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But when I talk about that, I never reenact it. 27:21 [SPEAKER_00]: That was a very good catch of yours. 27:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And especially, everybody talked at hand. 27:27 [SPEAKER_02]: My mom was a type and used up to top out of her way when she was doing a story. 27:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Her hands will be flying everywhere. 27:33 [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're talking about something like this, and she's very rigid and now it's very, 27:40 [SPEAKER_02]: He's a, I would say he won a line to see a path to sky. 27:44 [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't really show too much emotion. 27:46 [SPEAKER_02]: He's very rigid. 27:48 [SPEAKER_02]: He's got this bad looking at the eye. 27:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you, what I noticed when the camera just about caught out, he was in the window of the SUV. 27:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And he had this looking at the eye, like it was just, I was just gonna say plain evil. 28:03 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just plain evil look. 28:05 [SPEAKER_02]: and it was like a deadmark, yeah, just yeah. 28:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't even explain it. 28:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of a shit. 28:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It can send a shit with me, it's fine, that look. 28:13 [SPEAKER_02]: But my opinion, he was the cop, he knew how to do it. 28:18 [SPEAKER_02]: He knew how what they would, if other investigators were going to look around, he knew how to do it, what they would be looking for. 28:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think he helped stage Kathy's body absolutely. 28:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if he would back the involved in the action of Chilling her, but yeah. 28:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to watch the whole all seven episodes now, right this minute. 28:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen the whole thing probably, I don't know, it doesn't times, and I must have missed it all for a lot. 28:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I know what I'm looking for, the other thing that a lot of people don't understand is that he was a lieutenant, and they did not typically work on Saturdays, and they did a rotation. 28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just, there were a whole bunch of guys that could have been 29:04 [SPEAKER_01]: that just happened to be working that day. 29:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's funny because the invite don't know how there's a lot of editing obviously and a lot of these behaviors men, men of best selves when you're being asked a question. 29:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of the, a lot of these videos probably caught the time obviously. 29:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm sure there were a lot more indicated that we lay it on the editing floor. 29:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So, it would have been great to have seen the thing, but obviously it won't be able to do that, but I'm sure there were a lot more law, a lot more Indian students to observe. 29:38 [SPEAKER_01]: 700 hours Mike. 29:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 29:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 29:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there were 700 hours film, and had to be whittled down to seven hours. 29:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 29:50 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot. 29:51 [SPEAKER_02]: In that same time, damped with an L when about the reanimation, he meant to use the condition of the body. 29:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And he says the condition of the body indicated that she was there for a while. 30:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And then later on, he says she had hearing. 30:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 30:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And there were no back. 30:08 [SPEAKER_02]: It was there for a while. 30:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I would do them that deterioration had started, right? 30:14 [SPEAKER_02]: She was there for a while, as he said. 30:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of contradicts the thought, like, how do you? 30:18 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you say? 30:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't get that thought. 30:20 [SPEAKER_02]: He'd like goes back on his words basically. 30:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Then, All right, so you had another question about that one. 30:28 [SPEAKER_02]: We can move to 44. 30:38 [SPEAKER_02]: as he's talking, truthful. 30:40 [SPEAKER_02]: That indicated that we were going to try to be too, to understand, treatably, and they, I was like, I swear on a DACA Bible, on my mother's grave, up like that, on my children, I swear I didn't do it, and they didn't treat it. 30:56 [SPEAKER_02]: That's just another indicator thing. 30:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I want you guys to know, and I'm telling the truth, because I'm stressing, and I'm being truthful. 31:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's another one. 31:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It's called a denial flag. 31:07 [SPEAKER_02]: they call them denial flag, and what people use those words of phrases, they're just trying to convince you, hey, I didn't do it, because I'm being truthful. 31:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm being truthful to you guys. 31:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we're on a stack of life. 31:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So he used that one, which is a very strong link to deception, very strong. 31:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So he's denial flags. 31:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that moved on to 4452, where he gave the native, baguettes in consistent, 31:35 [SPEAKER_02]: like he said, you were talking to him and he said, you said to you, ask anyone at the police station, he says, they would know me, but the people would, what does that mean? 31:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a big, big, very big. 31:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a non-antiased, so it's all real them and weren't actually. 31:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's called a paid decluster. 31:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So he said, that was just a lie. 31:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He probably knows people that could help you, but he didn't want you. 32:00 [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't know me, but the people would know me. 32:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you had it. 32:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, pardon me now. 32:09 [SPEAKER_02]: No, you go in the opposite in the crack cake. 32:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to go for it. 32:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I know. 32:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Go figure. 32:14 [SPEAKER_02]: No, any questions about it, you know? 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just so intrigued. 32:17 [SPEAKER_01]: This is fascinating. 32:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 32:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and build even better one. 32:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to take it to the end of that right now. 32:23 [SPEAKER_00]: from this point forward, Mike will be referring to timestamps and episode two. 32:28 [SPEAKER_02]: What 4813 is an instance with Creep. 32:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, this is one of huge weaknesses that these are the lot. 32:36 [SPEAKER_02]: It's probably message doesn't match the physical gesture. 32:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, he uses this, which again is another sign of deception. 32:44 [SPEAKER_02]: East State, we were told me as a head motion. 32:48 [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's what he quoted at that time. 32:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Stand 43rd chain, don't have the whole conversation. 32:54 [SPEAKER_02]: But when he says, all we was told me is head then, no, we weren't, but he said, the matter's just saying, oh, yeah, we weren't. 33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So another side of the deception right there, one of the biggest one in your mind, then they did. 33:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I use some conscious standard for the thing. 33:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's saying no, we weren't soul mates, but my boy's just saying, yeah, we were. 33:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, he, I think these are all 48, 34 times damn. 33:22 [SPEAKER_02]: This one, what's difficult to call, after really watching his hand. 33:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to assume this is what he did because he is think attempt in the motion of his hands coming together. 33:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It's called deep awake. 33:36 [SPEAKER_02]: You basically put your fingers together and move them around, fake a T.P. 33:41 [SPEAKER_02]: shape, and you can church people, that's what we call it, steepling. 33:45 [SPEAKER_02]: steepling up the hand. 33:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He's attempting that you show in that he's open. 33:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm telling you guys the troops. 33:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be cooperative. 33:54 [SPEAKER_02]: But actually, it's the sign of deception. 33:58 [SPEAKER_02]: As he's trying to show, I'm telling you guys the truth, but I'm more superior than I'm telling you what I'm telling you with that. 34:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, he's trying to be 34:10 [SPEAKER_02]: This is what this gesture is thinking of, like I'm telling you, the open, but this is fast. 34:15 [SPEAKER_02]: This is what I'm telling you, just a trick. 34:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're steepling it's hand. 34:19 [SPEAKER_02]: You can just be at the bottom of the clip. 34:22 [SPEAKER_02]: But you have to really watch for it because you can see its fingers coming together. 34:26 [SPEAKER_02]: At 49, he's crossing his, um, touching his face, covering his mouth when speaking and gazing upward. 34:35 [SPEAKER_02]: that it's called the behavioral cluster and all stress and kidding. 34:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone of those I just mentioned, stress and vacator. 34:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And that when you get a cluster like that is when you really have to look at a look at the guy and what he's talking about because he's obviously on the major stress, he's obviously trying to hide it, but again, he leaked it from every part of his body and he can't take it. 34:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And with he doesn't show anything. 34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: like this time and his verbal message things, but he's pretty stoic, he's pretty like upright and most of the time, and he shows nothing and facial expressions. 35:10 [SPEAKER_02]: My goal face is not that he's pretty stone-faced, but he flipped a few times. 35:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I observed at that point. 35:16 [SPEAKER_02]: 49, 52, again, he's got a bomb's crossed, which is a soothing motion, a distressed. 35:24 [SPEAKER_02]: He's covering his mouth when speaking. 35:26 [SPEAKER_02]: That's died, Link. 35:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Great, let's talk about that. 35:29 [SPEAKER_02]: When he asked Kathy, he his wife, and she said, no, watch it died. 35:35 [SPEAKER_02]: They blink, really fat, followed by, 35:38 [SPEAKER_02]: a normal rate. 35:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So, that's the stratificator for him, that's the source spot for him, like he's actually stressed out about it and it could be actually that I think rate is what we call a double dipah. 35:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Double dipah is it can be a stress rate, stress acta, and a deception factor. 35:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a double dipah that's 13 of them that do that. 35:58 [SPEAKER_02]: routine indicators that we call double dipers. 36:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It depends on the situation. 36:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So I believe stress and he's very, the end of the show about this whole stuff I'm talking about asking Kathy to marry him and she refused. 36:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any questions about that? 36:13 [SPEAKER_00]: you were mentioning how in most of the things that you pick up from Jerichoob, they were stress indicators. 36:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, with your experience, could someone be expressing those things when they're recounting a tragedy of something? 36:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 36:31 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to take into the 36:32 [SPEAKER_02]: consideration what the situation is. 36:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He's one on one with an interviewer. 36:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, they can be indicated that he's upset about this or he. 36:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's still he will we say you can't resolve an indicated by saying, oh, he went to trauma. 36:47 [SPEAKER_02]: or he went through this horrible situation. 36:50 [SPEAKER_02]: He loved the squirrel and she refused to marry him, but you can't resolve it because you have to take deep and find out what's going on. 36:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So one of our kind of rules is do not resolve the hate. 37:02 [SPEAKER_02]: You can resolve the hate that they have been old gentlemen walked up to you. 37:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of our indicated is trembling. 37:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And this gentleman obviously has some type of medical issue like Pock and then you can see it. 37:17 [SPEAKER_02]: when somebody's talking to you and they're putting their hand up to their feet and their hand is trembling, it's a difference. 37:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can see it might not be heard by a normal person, but someone who has been trained to watch it can know the difference. 37:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So to resolve the behavior, not necessarily a good thing, just have to let it play out. 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Derek Thube has two polygraph tests. 37:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And the guy that was with him, Peter McKeeen, also took a polygraph and passed it. 37:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were given the polygraph tests on two different days. 37:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So McKeeen was not on the same day as Jerry. 37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So to me, that's like, I'm not a cop, but that sounds like, 38:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd question that because they were buttons. 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is if McKee and his fallen off the radar because he's changed his number and doesn't answer the phone, he's elderly. 38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But his Maryland said in the capers, he sounded very scripted and he told like the whole story from beginning to end. 38:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, is it possible for people who are sociopaths or psychopaths to take 38:29 [SPEAKER_01]: to pay us some polygraph. 38:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 38:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe they are in all the let me point out that they took them what year was it? 38:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's 1969. 38:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 38:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't put much trust in Paulies back then. 38:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure they worked here at points. 38:46 [SPEAKER_02]: But I wouldn't even today. 38:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even trust Paulies because just for an example of friend of mine. 38:53 [SPEAKER_02]: trade up guy, never been in trouble in his life. 38:56 [SPEAKER_02]: He worked with us because he can't be in trouble. 38:59 [SPEAKER_02]: He can't have any kind of racket or anything to get these conditions in the government. 39:03 [SPEAKER_02]: They totally investigate you. 39:05 [SPEAKER_02]: There's like a thing of 36 pages yet to do a background. 39:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So this guy would end up, and to get, I think he was going for some position in the customs and board of protects or whatever it was. 39:19 [SPEAKER_02]: He spaled the polygraph and this was like two years ago, I'm like, what do you think you build? 39:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I failed the polygraph. 39:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Like what? 39:27 [SPEAKER_02]: But you're like the most honest guy X Marine or the discharge daily guy. 39:32 [SPEAKER_02]: No, failed. 39:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't put much trust in polygraphs to tell you the truth and all state what you mentioned that they did it on different days and they were friends. 39:42 [SPEAKER_02]: If you recur stories and possible antists with each other, you're going to be a lot calmer when you take a policy. 39:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you know your buddy's going to fit a same thing. 39:51 [SPEAKER_02]: They probably went over all types of scenarios. 39:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the police were involved, hello, if they're administering the polygraph. 39:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And for example, Kathy's car was processed at the same district station where Scanel was lieutenant and all his cop buddies who 40:09 [SPEAKER_01]: we'd been told we're in abuse or work. 40:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's where they took the card to be processed. 40:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was processed as a missing person case, not on the side. 40:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, with his funny Amy was like, we're at that cop-packed on the kick of some like, it's probably in the police like inspection bay. 40:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think a lot called the kettle black. 40:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we'll give you the 40:32 [SPEAKER_00]: The gap between three actually, it was nothing. 40:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So Mike, what you're saying is during episode two and three at any point where you saw survivors talking about their experiences, we don't have timestamps for those because in your opinion, it seemed like everyone did not show signs of deception. 40:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, no, people will say, did any victim show and he indicated that actually I watched a lot of victims talking and stuff and they really didn't, they really 41:02 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no reason that we're stressed out. 41:04 [SPEAKER_02]: They're telling this story. 41:05 [SPEAKER_02]: They might get emotional with something, but that's not anything we do. 41:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so when someone's being treated like that and telling their experience, they're not going to show any of the kids. 41:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, they might get emotional. 41:16 [SPEAKER_02]: They might get a little stressed, but you know why they're telling you this story. 41:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we want to get out of people, they're a story, but when they're being deceptive, they don't want to tell the story they're going to show the time to the detection. 41:29 [SPEAKER_02]: No signs in the steps should no fear. 41:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe some stress, because obviously it was a stressful experience for them, but no fear. 41:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing new, just like that. 41:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I was told my wife was sitting there watching me. 41:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't get anything out of those episodes, so yeah.
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