0:06 [SPEAKER_00]: After leaving the Candles Holocaust Museum, an education center, and Tara Hought and Diana, I mentioned our trip to a photographer friend of mine named Rodney Markison from nearby Bloomington. 0:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I was telling Rodney about a book I had purchased at the museum that was unlike anything I'd ever read. 0:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a biography of Eva Core, the founder of the Candles Museum, but it was illustrated in a way that reminded me of a black and white comic book. 0:38 [SPEAKER_00]: As soon as I described this biography, Rodney said he knew exactly the book I was referring to. 0:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And through that connection, I had the pleasure of meeting another friend of Eva's, and the man who wrote her life story. 0:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much Rodney told you, but I was telling him about the books that we purchased and I was specifically talking about your book and I was like, yeah, there was one of these books that was brilliantly both written out and the illustrator really cool parts of it. 1:08 [SPEAKER_00]: So it explains what happened really well. 1:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, 1:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Was it written by someone named Joe and I was like, yeah, it was and he's like, oh, I know Joe I was like, no, you don't as it turns out Rodney did know Joe and after our brief email exchange We were able to schedule a time to discuss not only his book, but his personal encounters with Eva Corps 1:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't we start by you explaining to me first off your name and what it is you do? 1:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, my name is Joe Reed, and I am an illustrator, a cartoonist, a writer. 1:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, circus clown, I actually have a degree from Ringling Brothers running the famous clown college and worked circuses. 2:07 [SPEAKER_01]: For several years and I still do some performance, so I had had a varied career in the arts. 2:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It is certainly my life blood, and that's why this project with Eva really was something I was interested in, but something that I can imagine something better suited for my particular skill set. 2:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, how did you go from being a circus clown into writing books? 2:43 [SPEAKER_01]: As a little kid growing up in southern Indiana, I fell in love with the library. 2:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And especially with illustrated books. 2:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, it was a natural fifth, a local librarian who became my great champion when I was a little kid, would actually hurt his books that she thought I would probably be the only one interested in, but knew that she would have somebody that would take them out multiple times. 3:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Their schools are in had no art program, so she encouraged my drawing by having 3:19 [SPEAKER_01]: middle exhibitions for me in the library when I was growing up. 3:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, when I introduced her to my wife, we went down where it was worth into Nendian, where I grew up. 3:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And Mrs. Wop at that time, I believe she was 85 years old. 3:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I introduced best to her. 3:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, wait a moment. 3:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I still have some of Joe's drawing. 3:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So these are drawings I would have done for not least nine, 10, 11 years old. 3:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I thought, wow, she really did have some an eye out for me. 3:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, we got the opportunity, my son, that to meet her when she was 95. 4:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, 4:01 [SPEAKER_01]: we were all together at her 100th birthday and her 101st birthday. 4:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so we're having that kind of interest and in something that I was already doing and was so involved in really encouraging it to continue in. 4:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 4:20 [SPEAKER_01]: telling the story with pictures. 4:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It's what was so unique when we were at the museum. 4:25 [SPEAKER_00]: They had several books that they were lining out for me to look at. 4:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I was opening the different books. 4:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been at a lot of museums. 4:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And you open a book and there's a lot of words. 4:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes there might be a photo. 4:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And I opened your book. 4:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was so unique because it's seriously, in my lifetime of being at museums and opening books, 4:46 [SPEAKER_00]: the first time I opened a book and I saw an author both right out words and you also being an artist and writing out an illustration of some kind to go along with those words. 5:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, when I went to go start the first page, I thought, I'm just going to spend, I have five minutes to spare. 5:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to read a couple of minutes. 5:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And I read the whole book because I just couldn't put it down because your illustration is just kept me going it's just you just fall into it. 5:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so brilliantly written and the illustrations just capture you. 5:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you. 5:25 [SPEAKER_00]: What kind of book do you call this? 5:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Graphic novels have become a very popular form, but this is a graphic biography. 5:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's no fiction to this at all happened. 5:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think graphic biography, I think it's a form that we see more and more of it all the time and it's exciting for illustrators 5:51 [SPEAKER_01]: illustrators who draw to be able to work in this format because there's the old cliché pictures worth a thousand words or sometimes it is and sometimes you can convey an idea so much more quickly and 6:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And, importantly, with an illustration to show that, and, of course, given an experience like Auschwitz and Auschwitz II, Birkenau, that Eva and her sister went through, being able to draw it, I'd find, for me, it was a very helpful way to engage with the story. 6:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And I found that exceptionally true in the ending, cause I felt like with your images, I was there with you experiencing her death. 6:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know that I could have felt that had you not drawn it. 6:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was unexpected, as a reader, I did not expect that part in the book, so that was very powerful. 7:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, she had been alien in it had a heart surgery early in the year. 7:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had talked to the music to even the museum about doing this project. 7:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And Eva was, she didn't quite understand the form, because it was just something she wasn't used to. 7:22 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when I've explained that comic book, 7:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And she wondered, is he going to make me a super hero? 7:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And I assured her no spandex wouldn't be involved, but so I got a grant from the Indiana Arts Commission. 7:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, to work on this novel to go, they said. 7:46 [SPEAKER_01]: biography and to go on the trip that they were taking and even would go there she would take two groups and the first group that was there the week before was a very large group and primarily high school students and younger people. 8:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So we were a much smaller group that's second week in Poland. 8:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a good thing, it was less strain on her, but she had not been well, but Eva was the kind of person that gave her a forum and she was there. 8:20 [SPEAKER_01]: She wanted to talk about this experience and have people remember and people to come together to keep this kind of inhumanity. 8:29 [SPEAKER_01]: them ever happening again. 8:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And I almost, as I was talking to my wife, I thought maybe I'll get more information and I will apply it for this grant the year after. 8:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And my wife said, Joe, if you're going to do it, do it now. 8:45 [SPEAKER_01]: If I hadn't done it, there wouldn't have been a next year. 8:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It gave me that opportunity. 8:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to be as true to do events and emotions 8:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And the entire day, she spent the entire afternoon with us in Birkenau. 9:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And talking to us, and it was, it had been up to that date, the hottest summer Eastern Europe it ever had. 9:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Every day was in the high 90s. 9:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And in Birkenau, there's no shape. 9:17 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the buildings 9:21 [SPEAKER_01]: that as it was explained to us, it wasn't, they weren't destroyed by the Nazis, although the gas chambers were destroyed by the Nazis, but by the local people who had been bombed had lost all the building materials and were forced to lead their own property so this camp could be built. 9:49 [SPEAKER_01]: deconstructed a lot of the wooden barracks, so they could build their own homes. 9:53 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, there we are, and Eva is engaging. 9:57 [SPEAKER_01]: She is funny. 9:59 [SPEAKER_01]: She, you would have no idea that, in less than 24 hours, she would be gone. 10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And she had dinner with us that night, and she wanted to be, as involved in this trip, as she possibly could be. 10:15 [SPEAKER_00]: In your book, you mentioned there was a moment with a bunch of high school students, and she was in front of or at the front of where she would have gotten off the train. 10:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I was wondering if you could talk about that. 10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she was in that main gate of Birkenhau, where the trains would come in and go up to the selection platform. 10:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of the gathering place for groups to go in. 10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And Eva was arriving and she had been told that the boys of the Los Angeles children's choir had been told about her and they wanted to sing to her. 10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find on YouTube, if you put in L.A. children's choir, 11:00 [SPEAKER_01]: and Eva Corps, it should come up in your, but it is, and this is one thing about Eva that, at given who she was, if you watch the video, it takes a few minutes for Eva to get out of what we call the Pope Mobile, or this little thing that she traveled around the camp in, and then to actually, 11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: be with the choir. 11:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was told she had to put her lipstick on because Eva always wanted to look and be her best. 11:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was thought, that's who this is. 11:38 [SPEAKER_01]: This is this person that survived. 11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: She survived because she had this will and her own sense of her being in dignity. 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And when they sing to it, it's a beautiful moment. 11:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 12:22 [SPEAKER_01]: They sing song in Hebrew, but they also sang the impossible dream from the musical Man of the Amazza, because that was her favorite song. 12:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And we actually, on the last Saturday that we were at the camp, and Eva was gone, and I have a, I'm right about that when we do in years past, they would always do 12:47 [SPEAKER_01]: a little ritual kind of at the memorial sculpture at the end of Birkenhau and people would like candles and mention anybody that they knew that was an inspiration for them who had gone through the Holocaust or World War II. 13:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And this was a time that it was really, it was about 13:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing that we ended up doing was, and it was difficult to get through the man of the marcher, but we gave it our best shot and sang the impossible dream. 13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was an incredibly meaningful moment. 13:41 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that you had mentioned in your book after she had arrived in her potmobile, I guess there was a crowd of high school students I believe you mentioned, and she was talking about her experience. 13:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that really struck me about what was happening in that moment was you had you mentioned, and I loved your illustration with her pointing her finger by the way. 14:05 [SPEAKER_00]: That's one thing that I think your book really points out well is if I was just reading this 14:09 [SPEAKER_00]: that if I was just reading the sentence, you just don't get that. 14:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But with you seeing her face and her smile and that little finger, you just really get pushed into that moment. 14:19 [SPEAKER_00]: But I really like how you explain that moment of her explaining what it was like to arrive there and how she never saw her family again. 14:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, then how there must have been people crying and then she stops for a moment and asked them why are they crying and that she overcame those things. 14:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, Eva got into this point at forgiveness and she had written a letter to her father for giving him for, she was hard on her as a child. 14:54 [SPEAKER_01]: He had wanted your son. 14:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And Eva was the most willful daughter that I'm sure he could have imagined. 15:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And so she wrote a letter for giving him, and then she wrote a letter for giving her mother, blue. 15:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Was so warm and loving. 15:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But her mother felt such guilt over not having gone to Palestine when they had the opportunity to. 15:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Because she did not want to leave her. 15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: quite old parents who lived in a separate village. 15:28 [SPEAKER_01]: She thought they would never survive whatever would happen. 15:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And she also thought, look, all of this is going to occur north and west of us. 15:39 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be safe here in our little village in Romania. 15:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course she was wrong, so even read those letters and incredibly moving. 15:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, Eva said, no, why are you crying? 15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a happy story, which was like, 15:58 [SPEAKER_01]: What? 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And she talked about that she personally had all these obstacles in her life. 16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: She had overcome. 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And from the Nazis to the Communist takeover of Berlin and Hungary, to all of that. 16:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And she had survived and certainly thrived. 16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was such a 16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a journalist who used to be with a local television station in Terahode. 16:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe in now he's in Chicago, but he talked about on the trip he took. 16:36 [SPEAKER_01]: There were, she used to have her groups, dance the horror, which is the traditional Jewish dance. 16:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a circle dance when everybody dances, it's done its celebrations. 16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been to weddings that you do that. 16:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And she would have people on the selection platform at Birkenhau dance the horror. 16:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And there were a group of friends system priest there. 17:01 [SPEAKER_01]: who were quite noticeably sharp about what was going on here and so even was told about it. 17:09 [SPEAKER_01]: She went to the priest and she said, this is where they took away my joy and this is where I get it back. 17:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So she definitely believed in, and instead of suffering all the trauma that she did after the war, that building trauma, she found a way to come through that and really to send out a message of hope that was a way that people could lay down, not forget, and not excuse the past. 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But find a way to continue and thrive in the future. 17:47 [SPEAKER_00]: a couple minutes ago we were talking about the moment where Eva was talking to the group of people who included the high school students and she mentioned how she had survived, those obstacles and your book you mentioned it was early the next morning on July 4th and was wondering if you could walk me through that next morning. 18:09 [SPEAKER_01]: What have she, as it turned out, she died early that morning. 18:13 [SPEAKER_01]: She was going to meet us in Auschwitz one, which is in Auschwitz one, it's one that people will identify as, 18:24 [SPEAKER_01]: that has the curved metal sign over the gateway that says, our bite mocked fry, which is work makes you free, which was a sick ironic joke with an oxy's because if they didn't send you to the gas chambers that would work you to death, but so she was going to be there. 18:44 [SPEAKER_01]: and often she were in one of the barracks and Auschwitz I was a Polish cavalry barracks before the war and it was expanded first to be a prisoner of war camp that they would bring the Soviet prisoners of war but to begin with they would bring political prisoners to that and then they expanded it to all the groups and then eventually built 19:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Auschwitz II, the Birkenau, as their primary death camp. 19:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So she was going to meet us there, and she would often be in one of the barracks, where they had a photo display of that incredible picture of Eva and her sister at Liberation. 19:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So she would stand in front of that, or she would sit on a little walker, and she would 19:41 [SPEAKER_01]: who came there. 19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And we were told that it looked like even wouldn't be able to join us. 19:49 [SPEAKER_01]: because she wasn't feeling very well. 19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason they did that is they were before the news could get out. 19:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And she was well known around the world that they wanted to announce this and didn't want a chance of people breaking the news before they were ready to do that. 20:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And so she did not meet us that day. 20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: We got back on the bus, leaving, 20:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Auschwitz, and then they announced that Eva had died early that morning. 20:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course it was unexpected because she had seen so vibrant the day before, but in some strange way, it seemed to make a kind of sense that when she left the planet, she would leave it there, because that was the last place. 20:46 [SPEAKER_01]: that she had then with her entire family. 20:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was, it was her son, Eric, who often traveled with her with us there. 20:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we spent as much time offering comfort to Alex. 21:02 [SPEAKER_01]: He actually did interviews. 21:04 [SPEAKER_01]: late that evening with BBC and different news outlets. 21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was one of those unexpected moments that you can't even be sure what your emotions were. 21:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was incredibly moving and inspiring as well to have actually spent those vast days with her. 21:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have to finish writing a 21:30 [SPEAKER_01]: My wife and I got to go on a special trip with a small group that candles took to Poland the very last day of February and the first week of March the next year and of course we got back just in time for everything to be shut down because of the pandemic. 21:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had a day job that I did, which I had left. 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And I knew I was going to be working on this book, but all of a sudden with everything being shut down, I certainly had the time and space to do it. 22:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I gathered a lot of information. 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a great deal of information. 22:13 [SPEAKER_01]: out about Eva and about the death camps and the Holocaust in World War II. 22:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, but having that last trip there and knowing what I was going to be working on and where it's going to be shaped, it gave me the opportunity to go into the book stores in Auschwitz and collect even more material that really helped. 22:37 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, there were a couple of things that 22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have to search for again, because they only had German and Italian additions of it was a selection of illustrated fairy tape that people, and this is the will of humans to survive, that they had written and illustrated in Auschwitz, and so that's a bit like the Holy Grail to actually see what 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: how people were interpreting not just their experience, but their hopes and dreams that fairy tales represent. 23:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was done pretty early after Auschwitz and it hadn't reached its full operation. 23:23 [SPEAKER_01]: At that point that I'm waiting to see those translated. 23:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that would be very interesting. 23:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious. 23:31 [SPEAKER_00]: When was the first time you ever heard of Eva? 23:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Even we should. 23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: One of those names that kind of out there in the ether. 23:37 [SPEAKER_01]: She had worked so hard to get her story out once she had started telling it. 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm not sure exactly when the first time I heard. 23:50 [SPEAKER_01]: about Eva, but what really spurred me on to start working on this was, my wife is a, was an art teacher. 23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes a good match, and she was involved with the police endowments teacher grants. 24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So she had received a couple of those. 24:10 [SPEAKER_01]: She several years ago started after she left her job in the school system. 24:15 [SPEAKER_01]: She started in these summer programs that they would bring all these lily teachers in. 24:21 [SPEAKER_01]: She was teaching water tower. 24:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the people she was working with, they said, we're going to the candles, and we see them, to hear E.B. 24:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Corps. 24:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And this, you should come. 24:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So this went, she called me, as soon as E.B. 24:38 [SPEAKER_01]: was done talking. 24:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, Joe, 24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: we've got to come back to Cherokee and hear Eva. 24:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And you really need to hear her and meet her. 24:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the meanwhile, because it took a while to get back there, we visited France in Pittsburgh who, and they had friends who were putting together a series of comic books about Holocaust survivors in the Pittsburgh area, called Crook's Pie. 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I saw those, and I started thinking, the whole art of Eva's story, it's not five or eight or 12 pages. 25:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And even in a hundred pages, you can only get the gist up at that. 25:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I started thinking about, this would be a great opportunity to work on this. 25:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when we finally got back there, I had a, 25:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I packed it up in frustrations and some thoughts that I passed on to the interim director of museum at that point, and when I met Eva, because Eva had talked about she had ideas that she wanted to work on. 25:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I told Eva, I said, Eva, I have an idea for the two of us to work on. 25:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll tell you that later, because everybody wanted to talk with her. 26:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was my first real engagement. 26:06 [SPEAKER_01]: with Eva and the museum. 26:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So how did that engagement become you guys working together on this book? 26:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Because Eva was alien and the museum was the interim director and everything they wanted to keep her from overstressing herself. 26:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But Eva being Eva, if somebody... 26:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They showed the documentary film here in Bloomington, that winter, and it wasn't that long after Eva had an operation, and because I'd seen the documentary several times, and as far as I understood Eva wasn't going to be there because of her help and everything, but no and behold, I missed her there because Eva showed up at the movie, and you know, 26:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I am sure it was probably against Dr. Zorders, but that was who she was. 26:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So I really, I emailed back and forth with the Candles Museum staff and I did not actually 27:13 [SPEAKER_01]: we would start sitting down and talking. 27:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would show her exactly what I was doing, but of course that opportunity never came forward. 27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But there is so much information. 27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Having meant her, spent that the time that I did with her, 27:29 [SPEAKER_01]: and really getting a sense of who she was, but their documentaries, their interviews, there are a lot of things written. 27:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Her story is pretty well known, but actually be in the locations where this happened is it's strange thing to urge people to, if you can go on one of the Candles Museum's trips and they've started them again, too Poland, 27:55 [SPEAKER_01]: and to Auschwitz and Birkenhau. 27:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I really recommend it. 27:59 [SPEAKER_01]: These were prices of horror, but they have become memorial sites that are deeply moving. 28:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And to visit there and to be in those places is an incredibly moving and important experience. 28:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And now they have and what we were doing that 28:20 [SPEAKER_01]: pandemic was they had put together an audio tour they were working out the bugs in that but so you go different places in Birkenau and Auschwitz and you're wearing your headphones and there's a sound and Eva starts talking and telling you what happened there. 28:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's done in a chronological way so you're following Eva's footsteps through her story in that camps. 28:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It's incredibly powerful to have her speaking directly in your ear. 28:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, if it's possible, I urge people to do it. 29:00 [SPEAKER_00]: You had love to go. 29:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if you can't do that, be sure and go to the Candles Museum, which is the only Holocaust Museum in Indiana. 29:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a very succinct way of engaging with Eva's rights in the Holocaust, in Jen, and 29:18 [SPEAKER_01]: with a wonderful staff that they are to engage with. 29:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate getting this opportunity and this has been a fun chat. 29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: This is such an important story, which was one of the things that motivated me to do this is hearing university students that didn't know what this was all about and then trying to find a form which was perfect for me being an illustrator to put it in that hopefully, 29:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It won't engage with the wider audience because especially these days when we see what's happening in the world with the rise of anti-Semitism, with all the bigotry and the racial turmoil. 30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, we got to know this story and we got to keep it from happening again.
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