0:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Wherever I travel, I seem to run into two people, Mark Twain and Abraham Lincoln. 0:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Not only are both of these people personal heroes of mine, but I also have a neck for finding memorials to them without even knowing they're there. 0:30 [SPEAKER_02]: This happened with Twain and Nevada, and it's happened with Lincoln all over the Midwest. 0:36 [SPEAKER_02]: The most memorable example of this was a stop I made at Lincoln's boyhood home in Southern Indiana. 0:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I was in the area for another reason and happened to see the sign. 0:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I read the memorials and walked the grounds and enjoyed it so much that I decided to return with the rest of my team for an interview with the park superintendent. 1:01 [SPEAKER_02]: If you love American history, this park feels like 1:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It's part of the National Park Service, and an overlooked part of Lincoln's history. 1:14 [SPEAKER_02]: He spent some of his most formative years in these remote hills, from age 7 to his early 20s. 1:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here with Wanda Shear, Park Superintendent at the Abraham Lincoln for a hood home. 1:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So why don't we start with you telling me what your name is and your position here at this park. 1:37 [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Ron DeShir, and I serve as the superintendent of Lincoln National Memorial. 1:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And how did you get here? 1:44 [SPEAKER_00]: This was a chapter in my National Park Service Adventure. 1:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I started with the National Park Service at Mount Rushmore National Memorial in South Dakota, and I worked there as a summer seasonal park ranger when I began my teaching career. 1:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And then several years after that, the Park Service created a teaching job at Mount Rushmore called Education Specialist. 2:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So I became full time with the Park Service in 2004 and have worked at a few different parks since that time and now here is superintendent. 2:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I've always wanted to go to Mount Rushmore. 2:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't made it there yet, but I'm curious what made you want to start being a park ranger and specifically at Mount Rushmore. 2:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Like grew up in Rapid City, South Dakota, which is at the base of the mountain as we like to say, though it's actually 27 miles from door to door to get to Mount Rushmore. 2:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But as a child my family was very good about bringing us into the natural world and outdoor experiences and my family had a phrase called the fun spots. 2:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we would pick out different fun spots to go to to go fishing and camping and hiking. 2:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And we went to Mount Rushmore often as one of the most beautiful fun spots in our local area. 3:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I knew as a little kid growing up that people were coming from all over the world to see Mount Rushmore and they were in awe and wonder of the carving and the history that represented in the beautiful scenic landscape of the Black Hills. 3:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So I always had a sense from a small age that we're in that green and gray uniform and working in a national park would be a pretty cool thing to do. 3:23 [SPEAKER_02]: No, what was it like working there? 3:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It was wonderful. 3:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I started there as a seasonal ranger in the summer, and so my job was to do visitor information at the information centers, to do ranger talks and walks. 3:35 [SPEAKER_00]: We had the evening lighting ceremony, which has been a tradition for years and years. 3:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Now the amphitheater is much bigger. 3:41 [SPEAKER_00]: It seats on 2,500 attendees every night and the Mount Rushmore sculpture is illuminated to the national anthem. 3:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So a variety of Ranger walks and talks and visitor experiences lots of special events. 3:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was a wonderful place to spend the summer. 3:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So now you are a Hoosier, now you're here. 4:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So what's it like for you to be here in the southern part of Indiana? 4:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I love Southern Indiana. 4:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I have worked in city parks in rural parks. 4:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I like to say that I've done the city mouse country mouse kind of experience with the park service. 4:18 [SPEAKER_00]: What I love about Southern Indiana is the farm land. 4:22 [SPEAKER_00]: The history and the atmosphere and the culture and the work ethic and the beauty and the seasonal rotation of getting the crops in, getting the crops out, going to harvest, watching all of the steps in between of planting the corn and the beans and seeing the crops mature and then the harvest and the satisfaction of knowing another harvest has come in. 4:44 [SPEAKER_02]: You make it sound so beautiful. 4:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It is quite beautiful. 4:48 [SPEAKER_02]: It is. 4:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love the rolling farmland. 4:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize before I came here that there was that kind of rolling landscape like I grew up with in the black hills. 4:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always a little bit nervous around flat areas. 4:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the rolling farmland was something I hadn't experienced before and it is quite beautiful. 5:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So the whole farm environment that we have here as an economic and cultural livelihood is echoed in our 200 acres 5:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Lincoln Boyhood Memorial, where Abraham Lincoln grew up on a farm and had that satisfaction of the seasons and the hard work and the success of the harvest. 5:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to go into that, but before we do, I have to say that when I come here, especially for the very first time, it's a very unique experience, especially being a who's or who's been here my entire life. 5:36 [SPEAKER_02]: The southern part of Indiana is unique. 5:38 [SPEAKER_02]: All of Indiana is a square, except the southern part, it kind of tapers off, and then when you get here, the time changes, and it seems to change at Lincoln City, is that right? 5:52 [SPEAKER_00]: It certainly does seem to change right in our backyard. 5:55 [SPEAKER_00]: We call it fast time and slow time. 5:57 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've heard that before, I have staff that live in fast time and work in slow time. 6:01 [SPEAKER_00]: It's unnerving to keep track of sometimes where you're supposed to be for a doctor's appointment or a restaurant reservation, whether it's fast time or slow time. 6:10 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just one of those idiosyncrasies of this part of the country that the time zone is right in the middle of an area you wouldn't expect it to be. 6:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because just north of here, we were in, is a hunting, hunting bird, hunting bird. 6:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the hour is one hour above the earth. 6:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. 6:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then so anywhere else will be the same time as you. 6:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 6:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So you always have to keep that in mind of the earth. 6:34 [SPEAKER_00]: That would explain why you end up at a dinner reservation an hour, two late or an hour, two early. 6:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 6:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And they say, oh, that's okay. 6:40 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll fit you in. 6:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when we were trying to figure out when the noon lunch hour is for this place at first, we were like, oh, that's at noon, then we're like, oh, no, hold on a minute. 6:50 [SPEAKER_00]: That's at one the time that we were actually put that on our website information to say, remember, you're at the time zone area where it changes and keep that in mind when you make your travel. 7:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's very smart, but it's just funny that as soon as you get to Lincoln City, the time zone just clicks right there. 7:07 [SPEAKER_02]: But it just kind of just shows you around this part is where there's just this uniqueness about the southern part of Indiana, I think. 7:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it makes you realize that we have to go with the flow and flexibility is key, which are real good things for who's used to always remember. 7:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, is the largest city around here, Evansville? 7:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Evansville and Owensboro, Kentucky, and then Louisville, Kentucky is down the road a bit. 7:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So we do have the larger populated areas and a lot of smaller rural towns, which are just great hunting bird and Jasper and Ferdinand, tell city, a lot of great little communities to enjoy and explore. 7:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And you have Santa Claus in Dina. 7:45 [SPEAKER_00]: We have Santa Claus in Dina. 7:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even think to mention that because everybody knows about Santa Claus, right? 7:50 [SPEAKER_00]: They're just seven miles down that way with a holiday world, the amusement park. 7:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes this a really nice tourism destination for the history and the recreation, and the outdoor recreation, too, with the national forest and the fishing lakes and things that really are appealing to a lot of people for family vacations. 8:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd like to go ahead and get into the history with Lincoln in this area, but before that I'm a little curious, what was this area like before Lincoln would have arrived? 8:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Wilderness for us, very unpopulated. 8:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just becoming a state, getting some attention from the people who were looking for a different way. 8:28 [SPEAKER_00]: His family was looking for a way to come where they wouldn't have the property disputes that they had in Kentucky. 8:34 [SPEAKER_00]: They were observers of slavery and realized that Indiana would be a non-slave state. 8:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that was appealing to a certain kind of people who wanted to have a different way of life in a different location. 8:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it was quite wilderness and just being carved out into farmland by the settlers that came in and made this their home. 8:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So was this all a forced? 8:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, no, I shouldn't say that. 8:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a combination of forest and flat land like we have now. 9:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But this area here was forest, and that's why Abraham Lincoln has the reputation of having an accent his hand most all the time and helping his dad clear the way. 9:11 [SPEAKER_00]: The historians tell us that they had to actually clear a route to get into the property because there were so many trees. 9:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And then of course they would have to clear to create the farmland and the crop fields. 9:21 [SPEAKER_00]: So this particular area was very heavily forced. 9:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Were there any Native Americans in this area at all? 9:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Not at that time. 9:30 [SPEAKER_00]: There was evidence. 9:31 [SPEAKER_00]: There's archaeological evidence of habitation years ago, but not at the time when they had come into the area. 9:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Before they started coming into this area, they were, I assume, from my memory Lincoln was born and Kentucky, how far away was that from this area? 9:45 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good question. 9:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Today's standards, it takes a couple of hours to get there. 9:50 [SPEAKER_00]: But I can't tell you how many miles that is. 9:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and do you know from that direction how they would have crossed the border to get here? 10:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there are historians that figure out they know where the route is, they know where the river crossing is. 10:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't give you the details on that because I'm not the historian that they are. 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, there's a lot of people that know all the details of how they would have gotten here and how they would have accessed this particular spot. 10:17 [SPEAKER_02]: The Lincoln family moved to Indiana in 1816. 10:20 [SPEAKER_02]: The same year that the Indiana Territory became the state of Indiana. 10:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Abraham Lincoln, the second oldest of three children, was seven years old. 10:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Today the path of that journey is marked in Kentucky, as the Lincoln family trail. 10:39 [SPEAKER_02]: The Lincoln ferry park near Troy and Diana marks the spot where the family landed on the other side of the Ohio River before continuing north. 10:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually they arrived here in Spencer County. 10:55 [SPEAKER_02]: At the site of this interview in a wild wooded area as Ronda has just described. 11:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Lincoln was reluctant to talk about his childhood, all throughout his life. 11:08 [SPEAKER_02]: But he mentions this move from Kentucky, in a brief autobiography he wrote for the Chicago Press and Tribune, during his run for the presidency. 11:18 [SPEAKER_02]: When Lincoln talked about himself, especially his time on the frontier, he spoke in the third person, so the person he's referring to in this passage is himself. 11:31 [SPEAKER_01]: At this time in 1816, his father resided on Nob Creek, on the road from Bardstown, Kentucky to Nashville, Tennessee, at a point three or three and a half miles south or south west of 11:47 [SPEAKER_01]: From this place he removed to what is now Spencer County, Indiana, in the autumn of 1816, Abraham then being in his 8th year. 11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: This removal was partly on account of slavery, but chiefly on account of the difficulty in land titles in Kentucky. 12:06 [SPEAKER_01]: He settled in an unbroken forest, and the clearing 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Abraham, though very young, was large of his age and had an axe put in his hands at once. 12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And from that till within his 23rd year, he was almost constantly handling that most useful instrument, less of course, in plowing and harvesting seasons. 12:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Tom Blinken and Nancy brought their two kids, Abraham and Sarah, in 1816, looking for a place where they wouldn't have property disputes that had caused a great deal of difficulty for him in Kentucky. 12:53 [SPEAKER_00]: In area that was not going to be allowing slavery and created a crop field area where they could make a livelihood, they probably had three different cabins to speak of each one getting a little bit nicer for their place to live. 13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Things were going really well for a couple of years, and then Nancy got sick with milk sickness. 13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The snake root plant, which they didn't know about at the time, had a toxin in it that was very bad to ingest, and so they fear that Nancy probably in taking care of the neighbors who had the illness may have drank the milk or eaten the butter from their cow who had eaten the snake root. 13:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Nancy contacted the illness herself and died at age 38, having only been here for two years. 13:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, they say that Abraham Lincoln had learned carpenter skills to help his father, she historians tell us that he crafted the pigs, possibly for his mother's casket, and they had the very sad experience of her passing away in the cabin, and then taking her by way and to the small burial ground on the Noel, 14:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is the reason that this place was established as a historical site by the state. 14:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And then later in 1962, as a national park, by President John Kennedy, because it commemorates the burial place of Abraham Lincoln's mother. 14:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And at that time, they often thought of the motherhood as a scented experience and called this the sacred resting place. 14:31 [SPEAKER_00]: The sanctuary where Nancy Hanks was buried, and therefore, it should be preserved and protected for future generations. 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: The park philosophy and purpose grew from that point of view to include a living historical farm and to share more of the story of the community and the family experience and pioneer farming methods. 14:52 [SPEAKER_00]: But it was originally created and revered as the resting place of Nancy Hanks Lincoln. 14:59 [SPEAKER_02]: when they would have arrived here, how would they have, this is more of, for my knowledge because I don't know how it worked back then, but how would they have gotten those cabins, would they have been paying for them, would they have been doing work to buy those, the land and the cabins? 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: They bought the land, he bought 60 acres, and then they built the cabins. 15:20 [SPEAKER_00]: They 15:21 [SPEAKER_00]: probably got their wood themselves from the forest and built their log cabin. 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: What we did before my time was find buried authentic cabins in other areas of Indiana and disassembled them and bring them here and rebuild them so that our reproduction cabin 15:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Carpentry shop, smoke house, corn crib, and log barn, indicative of that area, and from sources of materials that were contemporary to that period of time, but not the structures that were actually here as Lincoln's family would have used. 15:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But they would have built everything themselves from what they had within the area to create their cabins and their barns. 16:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So when the park was doing the rebuilding of the cabins, were there any buildings still standing? 16:11 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a really interesting history about how this park area of 200 acres. 16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: was actually part of Lincoln City, Indiana. 16:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So there were quite a few structures in this rural community before it became a state or national park. 16:27 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a gas station, there was a hotel, there was an elementary school, there were roads. 16:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as part of the National Park Service Declaration, they removed the structures and the roads. 16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And 16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: work to replicate the wilderness forest and farmland of Abraham Lincoln's time. 16:50 [SPEAKER_02]: and how long did it take to redo all of those cabins? 16:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how long the actual construction period was for the reconstructed farm area. 17:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But over a couple of decades, 1920s, 1930s, there were a lot of different groups of people figuring out what they wanted for this area, what they wanted it to look like, who they thought should be in control. 17:13 [SPEAKER_00]: The governor got involved. 17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a grassroots effort. 17:16 [SPEAKER_00]: They built up a park system that was very different than what we have today. 17:21 [SPEAKER_00]: They had the idea of making it a park with a road that led all the way directly to the cemetery. 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: They had gates. 17:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll see a couple of surviving gates on the end of our parking lot here. 17:33 [SPEAKER_00]: They had lion sculptures. 17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They had eagles on columns. 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: They had urns and plants leading up to the cemetery. 17:42 [SPEAKER_00]: The Lincoln Commission, who was managing the property hired Frederick Olmsted Jr. whose family has quite well known for designing landscapes for cities and colleges and national parks, and Frederick Olmsted Jr. came out here in 1927 and designed the cultural landscape plan that you see in place today. 18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: His suggestion was removed. 18:05 [SPEAKER_00]: The lion's sculptures removed the Eagles on columns, removed the Irons, removed the road that leads up to the cemetery. 18:11 [SPEAKER_00]: He said that all of that was distracting from the contemplative experience which will help visitors gain a reverence for the history of the Lincoln family experience in the burial place of Nancy Hanks Lincoln. 18:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what we have now is a alley, the formal landscape between the visitor center and the farm in the cemetery. 18:30 [SPEAKER_00]: the alley runs from the visitor center to the cemetery. 18:33 [SPEAKER_00]: There's two parallel trails and there's a sculpture, a row of shrubs and trees. 18:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Frederick Olmstead's idea was that it should be clean, simple, straight lines. 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And when someone stands in the visitor center and gets their first view shed of the park, they will be uplifted emotionally and physically to the cemetery area where they will have reverence for Nancy Hanks burial place and commemorate the memory of Abraham Lincoln 19:00 [SPEAKER_00]: in the Indiana woods and fields. 19:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I noticed when I was walking out there, there is a stone from Lincoln's Memorial. 19:15 [SPEAKER_00]: There is, there's a trail called the 12 Stone Trail. 19:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And the historians tell us that they relocated architectural artifacts from different areas that are significant to Lincoln's life and place them along the trail. 19:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you will see evidence of architecture from Gettysburg, from the White House, from his memorial tomb in Springfield, Illinois, all along the trail of 12 stones, so that people can reflect on the significant milestones of his life that happened during his residency here in Indiana, and in Illinois, and in Washington, DC. 19:53 [SPEAKER_02]: That's impressive in this starts at that stone. 19:55 [SPEAKER_02]: That's very cool. 19:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, the largest stone at this end is considered the end of the trail. 20:00 [SPEAKER_00]: If you go all the way up to the farm and do the trail, this direction towards the visitor center, you'll be in the time period of his young days in Indiana, all the way through his experience in Washington, D.C. 20:11 [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty cool. 20:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And when did this building, when was this created? 20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: This was in the 1930s. 20:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a couple of years of construction. 20:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe in 1934, 1935. 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And this also was part of Frederick Olmstead's recommendation for what kind of a building it should be. 20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And that it should have some public halls, like the one we're in now. 20:32 [SPEAKER_00]: There's the Abraham Lincoln Hall, which has the wooden pews and the podium. 20:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And then this is the Nancy Hanks Lincoln Hall, which is a little more informal, empty. 20:41 [SPEAKER_00]: My call at a multi-purpose room, we can put in the furniture and the events as needed. 20:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And then walk way out beyond here used to be open air, and the building was enclosed as part of one of the renovation projects. 20:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we have the movie auditorium in the center part, we have the exhibit hall, we have the bookstore, and then we have the two gathering halls that make up our visitor center. 21:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And when they built this building was when we're looking through it now, is it how they built it back then? 21:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is. 21:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to think if there's been any modern renovation to it and I don't believe there has been. 21:19 [SPEAKER_00]: The beautiful wood, the nice brass work, it's all vintage to the area when it was first created. 21:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And when people come here from the outside, what is that when you're looking outside of the building towards the entrance? 21:34 [SPEAKER_00]: We call that the Terrace. 21:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you're looking at the sculptured panels. 21:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were commissioned to 21:41 [SPEAKER_00]: show the significance of Abraham Lincoln's different chapters of his life. 21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's one that represents his boyhood in Indiana. 21:50 [SPEAKER_00]: There's one that represents his move to Illinois where he lived for 30 years. 21:54 [SPEAKER_00]: There's one that represents his period of time in Washington, D.C. as president. 21:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's one that represents the sacred and honored memory that he has in most people's hearts and souls after he passed away in 1865. 22:10 [SPEAKER_02]: In the next episode, I'll be back with Wanda, to learn more about the ways, life in Indiana shaped Abraham Lincoln, into the man and the president he would later become.
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