0:10 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, Gemma, welcome back. 0:11 [SPEAKER_01]: This is again, you know, we said we were only going to do one more and this is one more to the one more. 0:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but you know how we get Gemma, we we get the talking and there's more stuff that we just find that we have to talk about. 0:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine. 0:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, Gemma, so the last half of the questions from listeners goes like this. 0:32 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about four different suspects or persons of interest that people have been talking about. 0:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So this question is asking, has Gene or anyone made any public remarks about the name of who brother Bob is? 0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: No, she's not made any public. 0:51 [SPEAKER_00]: you said any public remark about the identity. 0:55 [SPEAKER_00]: She has not made any public remarks. 1:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And did she talk about it in her book? 1:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the question specifically said that listeners have said that she shared more information than what the documentary says. 1:16 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the word I'm looking for when something's not real obvious? 1:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Not evasive, but it's a little obscure. 1:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and it's not a clear statement. 1:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 1:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So she does refer to it. 1:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, people can buy the book and see what they think, but she has not made public 1:44 [SPEAKER_00]: although she has shared that with the police and select few people. 1:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think, Gemma, for you, one thing that I've always respected about you is when someone comes to you and gives you information, but they say they don't want to share it for whatever reason, even with survivors throughout this whole time that I've known you, when they share information, you're always quick to ask, is this information that I can share? 2:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you not want 2:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 2:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I really value that every time we reach this brother Bob subject, you are always, I can kind of see in your eyes that you're reminding yourself what, what is okay to say, because we always want to respect gene and everyone else. 2:28 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the priority. 2:30 [SPEAKER_01]: 100%. 2:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I think when it comes to brother Bob, it's important for those listening to know that 2:40 [SPEAKER_01]: brother Bob is someone that you know we believe would be involved in this and so it would be a little premature of us to just release that all willing, Lily. 2:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. 2:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Our hope is not only for survivors to go through healing and to you know to get justice in terms of justice from the church but also 3:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 3:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I will say at the end of the book I wrote, which came out in 2019, I gave my theory about who killed Kathy. 3:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And my theory was that a guy named Robert Zimmerman who could go by brother Bob because of paternal order of police that called each other brother. 3:30 [SPEAKER_00]: since that book came out. 3:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got another information and so I no longer feel as strongly that he was the murderer. 3:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Although I thought my theory was really good because of the name and he was identified as one of the predators. 3:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a police officer and it was not a nice guy. 4:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 4:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's funny that over time, even the title, Brother Bob, it's kind of been amazing that, you know, we know from the keepers and from from Jean, who brother Bob, the character is. 4:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of, you know, looking back at this whole journey that everyone has been on, Brother Bob kind of seems like a larger character in terms of more than one person. 4:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So, for example, you were talking about someone that you once thought could have been brother Bob. 4:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The likelihood that he abused people may have even killed someone, high, you know? 4:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's interesting that throughout this whole journey that you and the survivors have been on, there's this singular story of who killed Sister Kathy. 4:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And then among that are a lot of off-shooting stories of abuse and other murders and other abuse. 4:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's one thing that makes Sister Kathy's case hard, you know, is that there's all these horrible people connected to it, that have done horrible things. 5:07 [SPEAKER_00]: and there were literally many Bobbs. 5:11 [SPEAKER_00]: That's so terrible. 5:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Marilyn Tussman's name is Bob. 5:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there was Bob Orlinson, so there were some really good guys, but there were lots of Bob's in this story. 5:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's the same thing as Skippy. 5:27 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're never going to know who Skippy is, but if one more person says, I think it was John Podesto, I'm going to like scream because it's not John Podesto, I don't even know who he is. 5:48 [SPEAKER_00]: sketch artist from California period. 5:51 [SPEAKER_00]: We have no idea who he is. 5:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway. 5:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 5:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So the second question is also asking about Jean. 5:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Did Jean's father ever hear anything about what was going on at the school through his work? 6:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And did mascot put the gun to Jean's head specifically as a warning, not to say anything if her dad asked her about it? 6:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the first part of the question, I don't know. 6:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what her dad knew. 6:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Jean does not share a lot about her family's personal business. 6:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if he was aware of what was going on at KEO. 6:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And this could you ask the second part of your question again? 6:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, did Maskel put the gun to Jean's head specifically as a warning not to say anything if her dad asked her about it? 6:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, she talks about it in the capers and what's in the capers is all I really know, so I think in that episode, she does talk about how he said something about your father is going to 6:55 [SPEAKER_00]: think, I can't remember, do you remember what Maskel said to her when he did that? 7:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember the specific words. 7:02 [SPEAKER_01]: However, over time, you know, I'm not Catholic. 7:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So this entire thing with you and I working together has been getting a lot to know, not only Catholicism, but specifically Catholicism in the late 60s in the early 70s, which is a whole different thing. 7:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And so what I have always taken with me in regards to mass school, gene and her family is that it seemed to me that mass school in all of the abuse that he was doing would always relay a common message to his victims and that was no one will believe you. 7:37 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I am father of mass school. 7:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think there was a 7:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel terrible that I haven't memorized all seven episodes, sorry guys, but I do think she said something about, or maybe it's in a book, something about, you know, what would your father think of you or I'm going to tell your father or something and yeah, he did put a gun to her head. 8:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and Gemma, you lived at that time, you know, can you talk about that experience about what a father at that time, in 69, what that represented, especially if that father went to your dad? 8:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that you've mentioned before that your dad's, that was kind of a different situation from a lot of other Catholics. 8:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I tell you, I was always really bored with Anne Catholic, and I went to a Catholic school for 12 years, so we're uniform for 12 years, and the first eight years at St. William of York, it was nons and a few late teachers, but there were like 40 kids in the class, so you did, which you were told, I was a good kid, I was a good student, you know, I loved watching the 8:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And one time, we used to get these like weekly or every two weeks like a little report when what they call a deportment, which was like your behavior. 9:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And once I got a D in something about my behavior, 9:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was not Gemma. 9:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So my dad went up to the convent and he knocked on the door like a dinner time. 9:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And the nine came and he said, I want to know what this is all about. 9:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And the none looked at the paper and she said, well, she wiggled the line. 9:33 [SPEAKER_00]: We had to walk in lines. 9:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I wiggled the lines, that's why I got a D, right? 9:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of where it was at. 9:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Confession was terrifying. 9:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a black box, it's creepy. 9:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a coffin standing on its end. 9:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe they haven't met anymore. 9:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to have one. 9:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It would make like sort of like a fun phone booth. 9:56 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like a fun weird bed or something. 9:58 [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so everything about 10:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Dow, and boredom. 10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And for people that are still practicing Catholics, I'm not going to apologize because this is my experience. 10:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've come to a place where I really don't believe in God anymore. 10:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, don't everybody fall over. 10:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not drinking. 10:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not high. 10:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't believe that a loving God would allow the Holocaust and 9-11. 10:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And what happened to some of the survivors? 10:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I know a woman who was three. 10:38 [SPEAKER_00]: and she was raped by Joseph Maskel and that's not God. 10:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, I'm going around in a circle on this one, but yeah, it was like a cult looking back when it feels very much like a cult. 10:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And we have a friend out there in podcast, man, Sister Rose, Pekati, who's, where's a habit, she's a very cool nun, just never judged me to get to it. 11:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And she's very liberal. 11:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we could ask her back one again, but you know, to be honest with you, so much of what happened in the Catholic Church was done in secret, 11:24 [SPEAKER_00]: The only thing that women did in the church was like polish the chalice and dust the pews. 11:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not sure that answered your question. 11:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe a follow-up question, Gemma, 11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: The only, okay, I get where you're going, priests to me were kind of nerdy. 11:48 [SPEAKER_00]: There was one wonderful priest that was friends with their family, and he had since left the priesthood. 11:55 [SPEAKER_00]: He married me and my husband, and he did my husband's funeral, his name was Jack and Celai, he sent his avies now, and he doesn't believe all that anymore. 12:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that a lot of, 12:09 [SPEAKER_00]: good people have left the priesthood because of the things it happened. 12:14 [SPEAKER_00]: But to me, priests were kind of nerdy. 12:17 [SPEAKER_00]: They came to your house. 12:18 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, oh, I mean, they didn't come to my house often. 12:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He came because he was very cool. 12:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It came in it like sweatshirt and jeans. 12:26 [SPEAKER_00]: When my mom and I were getting ready to go to Rome and gave us all these ideas for restaurants and wine. 12:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I was 18 and he was like sitting on the living room floor. 12:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to solve these cool things that we could do in Rome. 12:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a whole different picture than what the girls at Keeow were facing. 12:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So my interaction with Moscow would have been either him saying mass in the auditorium. 12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: or hearing confessions, and I did not go to confession at Kio, I don't want to go in there and do that. 13:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other priest, Magnus, he also said, mass on certain days. 13:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was in one that did the memorial mass for Kathy when her body was found, which is really weird because he's up there. 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: saying it may pass and knew exactly what it happened. 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't have a closed relationship to any priest except for Father Jack and I just going Jack now. 13:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that's a whole other story. 13:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to get him one here. 13:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Gemma, it kind of sounds like that was the norm, though. 13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Your experience. 13:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I feel like typically a high school student wouldn't have had a relationship of any kind with the priests. 13:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not even like you would talk to your teacher after a class or, you know, in the hallway. 13:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember anybody ever ch-chatting with those priests. 13:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I just avoided them just because they just, and nothing happened to me. 14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I think my sister told me once that Channer friend, we're sitting on the loading dock behind school and having a cigarette and he came out and yelled at him. 14:16 [SPEAKER_00]: to get back in class, and that was the end of it. 14:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, but yeah, he was not like, I don't know. 14:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we hear how Bulgaria as he was and how manipulative he was. 14:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I never saw anything appealing about him. 14:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I just saw him as like kind of a nerdy priest. 14:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember him calling students out of class at all? 14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not. 14:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And there were several girls who were in my class. 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: My freshman year. 14:49 [SPEAKER_00]: everybody in the home room went to all the classes together. 14:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was kind of interesting. 14:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's say it is 25 girls who were in home room A. 15:00 [SPEAKER_00]: They spent the whole day together. 15:01 [SPEAKER_00]: They had all the same classes. 15:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I really do not remember anybody being called out. 15:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And there are several girls in my class who actually were abused by him. 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: don't know if it happened during other times or I don't know. 15:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I do know that, you know, it happened a lot, but I don't recall that at all. 15:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was so focused on school. 15:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I was kind of a goody to choosing, got bullied for that, because I loved learn. 15:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I loved school. 15:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, if somebody was being called, I probably didn't even hear it. 15:43 [SPEAKER_00]: If I had my nose in a book, I wouldn't even have, you know, been aware of it. 15:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Gemma, you knew Sister Kathy pretty well. 15:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that if she had a lot of students being called out of her class, that she would have asked questions about why that was happening if it was unusual? 16:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Knowing her, I think she would, but I think he was very careful not to call girls 16:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, no, she knew, and I think he would have been very, very careful about where he's calling them from, you know, we do remember in the keyfers where Jane talks about just your Kathy saying her. 16:29 [SPEAKER_00]: standing in the hallway, looking like she's lost and said, you know, Jane, you know, where he's supposed to be, and she was sort of, you know, and Kathy took her into her classroom, and we also know that Kathy ho-back, who was also in my class at KO, was playing the guitar with Sister Kathy after school to get ready for the folk mass. 16:53 [SPEAKER_00]: and he called her in Kathy's classroom after school. 16:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So he must have known everybody's schedule. 17:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he knew when everybody's period was and everybody's schedule. 17:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's very manipulative. 17:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty much of a genius, I think, in the wrong way. 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Another question we have was, have there been any new allegations against Father Cube? 17:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Since. 17:33 [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't say since when. 17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: They just asked if there were any new ones. 17:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 17:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, personally, I know, and these are women that I know, 17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I know of two, three, four, five, I know of five, and I spoke into four of them, and I believe them. 18:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, there was a article in the Baltimore banner. 18:07 [SPEAKER_00]: July of 2023 or 24, either two or three years ago, by Justin Fenton and his associate up for get her name, Sharper, last name as Sharper, anyway, they went and saw him and asked him those questions and if anybody wants to know more about it, they can look up that article, 18:33 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, see what he had to say is very, very long, and there is a, what do you call it when you have to pay a dollar to read something. 18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Subscription. 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but a dollar is worth it just to read that article. 18:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 18:48 [SPEAKER_00]: There's something when you get the article, there's something in the front of it. 18:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I forget what it's called, which means you have to pay for it. 18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, there's a lot in there, but apparently he sticks to his story. 19:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And as we mentioned before, I spoke to Detective Josh Tablia, who is handling Kathy's case, and and told him of my concerns, like he cares about me, right? 19:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And at begged him to go up there and talk to Coo. 19:20 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been just in the last year I guess and he did, he actually went up there on an ounce and he said he took questions that I had written. 19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: and he asked him the questions and he told me, he came back and that Cube sticks to his story. 19:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, what about the answers to my questions and he said, well, I can't tell you what he said. 19:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, well, that was a big waste of my time, right? 19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway. 19:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I still have my doubts about him. 19:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he is not who he appears to be. 19:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's very sad I've thought about why he's not been indicted and I do believe it's because of the five women that I know about only two of them. 20:13 [SPEAKER_00]: are in Maryland and were abused in Maryland. 20:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So in order for our, I'm just guessing this, you might know more in order for our attorney general to indict him, they would need more. 20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: There's that word corroboration. 20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: More evidence of abuse that actually happened in Maryland. 20:35 [SPEAKER_00]: and all five of the women that I'm referring to have reported this to the police department and to the attorney general and they all have attorneys. 20:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So I begged for answers. 20:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I've asked the investigator, why hasn't he be in a night? 20:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, I can't discuss it with you, Gemma. 20:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Gemma, when was the last time you heard from Jerichoob? 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that article that came out, I'm pretty sure it was the summer of, as I said, either 23 or 24, I think I asked him if he had seen it. 21:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And, I can't remember how he answered that. 21:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm drawing a blank here. 21:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to blame it on my broken hip. 21:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I can blame everything on that, right? 21:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 21:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But around that time was when I decided it was best to break off communication with him completely. 21:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't like what I was hearing. 21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't feel like he was authentic anymore. 21:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I was hoodwinked, I think we all were. 21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think he was more involved than he has shared. 21:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I did ask his daughter if she had seen it. 22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And she said yes. 22:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And that she and her sister don't believe any of it because they knew their father. 22:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, well, I feel the same way if it was my dad. 22:16 [SPEAKER_00]: But social paths can be deceiving and can have two personalities and so just to keep my nose clean and my 22:32 [SPEAKER_00]: mental health in a good place. 22:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I cut off my communication with all of them. 22:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't make a big deal over it. 22:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I just did it. 22:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So I have no Facebook or messaging or phone calls or anything with any of them. 22:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's fine with me. 22:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I've taken a big step back from all of this and it's much more peaceful to not be dealing with it. 23:01 [SPEAKER_00]: You think all, you could probably not see it here. 23:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we've asked him before if he would like to come on the show and he is declined. 23:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think one of the big things that sticks out in my mind about the whole, you know, the journalists who went up there and talked to him to write that article is his defense is not that 23:22 [SPEAKER_01]: the abuse didn't happen to them. 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: His defense was they were thinking of a different jerry cube, which I find that infuriating, like I just get so angry, like if someone is abusing you, you're not going to remember them because of their name. 23:40 [SPEAKER_00]: right. 23:41 [SPEAKER_00]: He said there was a mix up in identification now. 23:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I can kind of explain that because there was a teacher, a male teacher, not a priest or seminarian at the boy's school, near Kio, whose name was 24:10 [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is that there was a Jerry Kelly at Kio, who was the senior advisor, not a priest or seminarian, but he taught religion, and I think who is grasping it straws at anybody, 24:38 [SPEAKER_00]: who could be the person that, you know, these girls are thinking of, and he's wrong, they're thinking of him. 24:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of them said, you know, his voice was so loud when he was angry that she's never going to forget it. 25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the next question I have for you, Gemma, is there any documentation or evidence that other teachers like Kio knew about the abuse or was it really limited to Russell and Kathy? 25:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, okay, I think a lot of teachers knew, I think everybody knew something, okay? 25:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And I went through when we first started digging into this back in 2013, 25:33 [SPEAKER_00]: faculty for my year and the year like behind me. 25:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And I tried to get in touch with every single faculty member. 25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Now it was difficult because in those days, if you were a woman and you married a man named John, then you were Mrs. John Smith. 25:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You weren't Gemma Hoskins anymore. 26:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I know when I got married, 26:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember in my mom, we get male, Mrs. Charles Stubb. 26:13 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not the way it is anymore. 26:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's kind of funny to think about it, right? 26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think a lot of teachers knew what was going on. 26:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Gene alleges that some of the male teachers were involved and has named them. 26:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a what do you call up when you have a lawsuit and it doesn't go through and you go to a different court. 26:50 [SPEAKER_00]: You go to a higher court. 26:51 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you that called the Supreme Court? 26:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but this is a summary for a different 26:58 [SPEAKER_00]: for anyway, it's out there. 27:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Now everybody has something to look for. 27:03 [SPEAKER_00]: She names teachers and she name some like Mr. Go tie and Mr. 27:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Glasses or something. 27:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 27:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know that they weren't pedophiles or that they just were intrigued by the idea 27:21 [SPEAKER_00]: be honest with you ban with a young girl, you know, because they were young men, they were not priests, they were not seminarians, was a whole bunch of them, and they would, you know, they'd play basketball in the gym with the girls, or they'd be teaching religion, and, you know, so anyway, I don't know how much involvement there was with the male faculty, 27:49 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're like, I'll call you back or I couldn't reach him. 27:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And the one that did talk to me was Jerry Kelly. 27:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was my senior religion teacher, a very nice guy. 28:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, gentlemen, we were all so naive. 28:03 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the 60s. 28:05 [SPEAKER_00]: We really didn't know what was going on. 28:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Which I don't think, I think that's a non-answer. 28:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really buy that. 28:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I think once Kathy was murdered, 28:14 [SPEAKER_00]: which was fairly early in Maskel's abuse career. 28:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, she was murdered in 69. 28:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And he went on to many, many parishes until he died and I think 2001, and he abused it every single parish. 28:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think one's Kathy disappeared. 28:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I think everybody shut up. 28:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I think people left the school. 28:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I do remember a teacher. 28:43 [SPEAKER_00]: talking about him giving a ride home and he may or nervous or that somebody followed or home. 28:53 [SPEAKER_00]: There was another man who taught business classes, Mr. Scone, and he talked about how rough Moscow was in the 29:04 [SPEAKER_00]: faculty lounge and, you know, just not what you would expect from a priest. 29:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So I do think a lot, I think most of the teachers knew what was going on if they didn't, they had their head in the sand. 29:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 29:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important to also talk about when it comes to this topic about who knew what? 29:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of the attorney general investigation, there was a 456 page report that went out and it talks about almost 600 children that were abused spanning decades. 29:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you have any questions on who knew what that investigation really uncovered the scope. 29:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 29:46 [SPEAKER_01]: What happened, which is why one of the reasons why we are seeing the whole bankruptcy thing way out right now. 29:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that document that attorney general's report. 29:59 [SPEAKER_00]: that is like a pornographic film on paper. 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's horrible. 30:04 [SPEAKER_00]: It's that specific. 30:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 30:06 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very, very difficult to get through. 30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome. 30:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And as the attorney general then, not the one we have now, but then said no parish went untouched. 30:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 30:19 [SPEAKER_00]: That's just that's just the archdiocese of Baltimore. 30:22 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not even all of Maryland. 30:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 30:25 [SPEAKER_00]: As Western Maryland is the archvices of Washington and Eastern Shore is the archvices of Wilmington. 30:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking just the middle part of Maryland. 30:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg. 30:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you think? 30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. 30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that even the information that they shared in that document is only touching on things that they had access to. 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think the worst of the worst, I would assume, you know, that those things weren't released. 30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we know other states and other investigations that happened where the church literally was hiding documents inside of walls when the investigations 31:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's it. 31:10 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really important to remember. 31:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The next set of questions, Gemma, deals with Joyce Malakis case. 31:16 [SPEAKER_01]: The question is, is there any news regarding Joyce's body being exhumed? 31:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And what has come from it so far? 31:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't know if everybody knows her body was exhumed. 31:29 [SPEAKER_00]: It was exhumed in September of 31:34 [SPEAKER_00]: say 26, 24, I think. 31:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And I talked to her family occasionally. 31:42 [SPEAKER_00]: They do have an FBI contact, but he has not shared that anything came about. 31:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, they hope. 31:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I hear 32:00 [SPEAKER_00]: like first person experience and it's really, really important not to just 32:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's somebody you don't know said, I've heard such and such and then believe it or share it. 32:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm only speaking about what the FBI agent has shared with them and what they have shared with me. 32:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is there's nothing right now. 32:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and as I mentioned earlier, unless they explicitly told us that we could chair information, we always respect that. 32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 32:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Did the Milwaukee's ever get the files from the FBI that they requested back in 2014? 32:47 [SPEAKER_00]: No, they did not. 32:50 [SPEAKER_00]: That is such a sad, sad mess. 32:53 [SPEAKER_00]: There were supposedly 4,000 pages. 32:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And we tried everything. 32:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And now everybody in the country knows who Senator Ben Hollin is. 33:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's the one that he was our Senator in Maryland that deliver a letter to the office asking for those files to be released. 33:16 [SPEAKER_00]: we were working on that both during the Biden administration and the Trump administration and we did not get responses from either president. 33:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I will say in Joe's defense and everybody knows I'm a bleeding liberal Democrat that the war in Ukraine had just broken out and COVID was taking over so he had other things on his plate and I'm not going to get political people can order with me about that but this is our show 33:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Where are they were or where they've been destroyed? 33:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know and I think you're dealing with this. 34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: it's kind of interesting now that we're talking about it because we also know that the Epstein survivors are also trying to get access to documents and and all of that investigation. 34:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So it just goes to show how much these men and power, both in Baltimore County, Baltimore City, priests, 34:29 [SPEAKER_01]: but also all around the world, and so I've met a few of the Epstein survivors when I was recently at CrimeCon. 34:38 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, Gemma, one of them, had had me on Facebook, and I was just so tickled. 34:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's really interesting to me here in 2026 that they are fighting that fight. 34:51 [SPEAKER_01]: of trying to get information out and what really sticks with me is I went to one of their events at crime com where they were speaking about their experience and one of them said that in a meeting with the FBI and the head of the FBI and the Department of Defense. 35:09 [SPEAKER_01]: They explained the reason that they were not wanting to release all the documents is because a lot of people in government and in power around the world, if they were all held to a count because of this abuse that had been going on, they said these governments were collapse. 35:29 [SPEAKER_01]: and the abstinence survivor says, let it fall, let it fall, and so I think when we think about the malachias and trying to get access to the FBI files, I want to know what's in there. 35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just like I want to know what else there is about the Epstein files, about why it's not being released, and I think that those in power and one thing to keep in mind for Baltimore for everyone who's not in Baltimore is that's really close to DC. 36:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so if you have abuse that was happening in 69 in prior to that as well, but I think that if they're wanting to. 36:11 [SPEAKER_01]: get it out there, they need to release all this information, you know, so I have no doubt that even after if at some point in time, Joyce's case is solved, I have a hard time believing they'll release all of the information, just like Epstein. 36:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if they solve it and, you know, there's a name and the police, I don't know, whoever it's proven that this person did it, 36:41 [SPEAKER_00]: then why bother releasing the files? 36:45 [SPEAKER_00]: See, I think, well, I think the reason not releasing Joyce's files is the same as the reason for not releasing the upstream files, and that is because I think there is information, and Joyce's files about Kathy's murder, 37:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe that there's information in the Epstein files about our president being involved in the murder of children. 37:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the literal murder of children. 37:19 [SPEAKER_00]: There's too many whistleblowers on the perimeter. 37:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, some people have heard of, I forget that guy's name, okay, remember his name, he talks about being one of the kids who witnessed children being shot, you know, there's rumors about Trump throwing a child off a boat. 37:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think what's in there is not just abuse, I think it's 37:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe a lot of people were involved in it. 37:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe that's why we don't, I'm a feeling some of that stuff's been destroyed. 38:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I think some of Joyce's was all on paper. 38:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's been destroyed. 38:06 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's the reason. 38:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, because it involves murder. 38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we know, Gemma, for a fact that the evidence 38:20 [SPEAKER_00]: if it was destroyed, that's you destroyed it. 38:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But that, I mean, that was information that was shared with us that we could talk about, you know, that that information was accurate, that the evidence that they had in Joyce's file was destroyed by the FBI around the same time that Jane Doe and Jane Rowe came forward. 38:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and I think the answer we got was that if it's been documented and I don't know categorized or whatever and they know what the evidence was they don't there's no reason after 25 years to keep it so I don't know that's a load of crap. 39:02 [SPEAKER_01]: and an unsolved murder case you do not destroy physical evidence because the science always advances. 39:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So what you can't do today, you might be able to do tomorrow. 39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a non-answer. 39:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But going back to what you're saying about why you wouldn't release files. 39:18 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, it's very clear. 39:21 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not wanting files released, but you have the power to release them. 39:26 [SPEAKER_01]: either you are guilty of something or your friends are, and you're trying to protect your friends either way, your guilty of my eyes. 39:36 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have the power to release something as powerful as these documents both for joys as well as Epstein files. 39:43 [SPEAKER_01]: that is a coward who is protecting himself or his friends. 39:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is no worse, if these people are not abusing children, that's as worse as you can get to protect them, because it just means that the pattern will repeat itself. 40:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, you're right. 40:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not political at all. 40:05 [SPEAKER_01]: That is the facts. 40:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Gemma, to keep going on the questions that we were given, how is Kathy's family doing? 40:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And have you had any communication with Marilyn or any of her siblings? 40:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do know that the family decided, like, after all, the chaos following the release of the keyfers, that they preferred to be out of the spotlight. 40:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they all withdrew. 40:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it had impacted them in a number of ways. 40:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Health wise, mental health wise, you know, they're a very private family, and they were kind of thrown into this. 40:47 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, until Marilyn found out about out of it, and I digging in, she didn't know anything about who Moscow was, and they really thought a random person had killed coffee. 41:12 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, based on their needs and their wants and their need for privacy to withdraw from that. 41:21 [SPEAKER_00]: So I have not had much contact. 41:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I've had a couple of interactions with Maryland's daughter. 41:28 [SPEAKER_00]: There's also an in-caffeine. 41:31 [SPEAKER_00]: She was named First Sister Kathy and we are Facebook friends, so I can, you know, see what they're doing and they have grandchildren and they seem to be doing okay, but have not had any direct interaction with them or seeing them since since the series was released. 41:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I mean, I think that's totally fair because if you have a loved one who gets murdered, that's hard. 42:01 [SPEAKER_01]: But then several years later, you know, a part of that that grieving process is you are thinking that you kind of know the story that it was just a random person random act. 42:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't personal. 42:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But then later, if you hear that she knew more and she may have been trying to protect students like that it's difficult and it's an attack on your religion. 42:22 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you question a lot of things. 42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can't imagine or fathom that heartache that they would have had to have endured and bring it all up and experience and feel it all. 42:32 [SPEAKER_00]: as a surprise oh yeah you know and it wasn't and then it was when the Marilyn Kathy's mom and died that they went through her things and found all the newspaper clippings and that part is in the keepers but I think that's that to me would have been really traumatic and you know 42:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they, they wanted to see where everything happened, they visited work out the, where she was last alive, and yeah, I can't imagine how difficult that was and how brave they were for doing it, but also how much integrity it took. 43:16 [SPEAKER_00]: For them to say, we're not going to continue to be part of this. 43:21 [SPEAKER_00]: It's too spinning around. 43:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that is going to be productive for our family. 43:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that was the decision they made. 43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And so gentlemen, the next questions that we have has anyone reached out to you with a new information since the keepers went out. 43:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, lots, most of it you and I put in the podcast. 43:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we have almost 100 episodes. 43:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like that's... 43:56 [SPEAKER_00]: All of those after the capers came out the first one was before. 44:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 44:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was when I first met you after I talked to Teresa. 44:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So everything in those, you know, talking to the guy that found her talking to the priest to gave masculine ride and mask. 44:21 [SPEAKER_00]: talking to Sean Kane. 44:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And just pretty much everything in there's podcasts. 44:26 [SPEAKER_00]: There's new information, the medical technician that worked for Dr. Richter. 44:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 44:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think what happened was that people came forward and we would say like, wow, this is new information. 44:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Will you go one show and discuss it 44:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, all the NK ultra stuff, Ling Sharma would be in traffic and, you know, looked at her being her handler. 44:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so pretty much everything in those podcasts, it is new information. 45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we also covered someone else who came forward. 45:04 [SPEAKER_01]: The name is escaping me right now, Gemma. 45:05 [SPEAKER_01]: You'll remember, 45:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But she talked about how she came to Kathy's apartment the day after she disappeared. 45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: In the first question they asked her, was there anyone at Kyoto who did anything that you didn't want them to do? 45:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, that was Sharon Hamilton. 45:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 45:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And she was a year ahead of me. 45:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And she was very good friends with Russell. 45:27 [SPEAKER_00]: They were like best friends, which I think is kind of cute, because, you know, Russell's and I'm, and Sharon is, you know, five years younger, but they were buddies. 45:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there were any other weddings. 45:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And we had never met Sharon, talked to her and she came forward and said she had been there around dinner time, the night the Kathy went out. 45:51 [SPEAKER_00]: either returning clothes or picking up clothes because the nuns were teaching in public schools and they didn't have like work clothes. 45:59 [SPEAKER_00]: So some of the girls gave them clothes that they could wear. 46:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And then she was called that night by Russell at around 10. 46:10 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, have you seen Kathy? 46:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And then she and her mom were back there early the next morning and she told me that the car had already been taken. 46:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So she had a significant role in the happening. 46:25 [SPEAKER_00]: She also told us that Russ said that Kube did say mass, but it was early in the morning of Saturday, you know, after the night Kathy disappeared. 46:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So she was able to corroborate some, there's that word again, something information and it really helped us with a timeline. 46:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Gemma has your perspective or opinion of who killed Sister Kathy changed since the keepers came out. 46:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Since the keepers came out, okay. 47:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I felt very sorry for Jerry Coo, the day he came to Baltimore and with his wife and came to my house and went around with us to different places and I cried when they were leaving because I just felt so sorry for them for him, but since then I have seen 47:27 [SPEAKER_00]: and hard information and his behaviors that makes me not trust him to my perspective on him change very much. 47:37 [SPEAKER_00]: My perspective on Edgar and Billy. 47:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I think obviously they had something to do with Kathy's murder because they literally both came home with blood on them that night. 47:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they had personal contact with her. 47:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 47:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they were the doers or the cleanup crew. 48:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But I do believe they both were involved. 48:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And knew exactly what was going on. 48:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So my opinion of them has kind of always been that they were involved. 48:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, the Zimmerman thing, you know, 48:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Robert Zimmerman's wife who had seen the keepers and told me that she had some information and then she spilled her guts about how what an awful person he was and then she wouldn't come and talk to us and then she told me to stop calling her and then she kept calling me. 48:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So you know, but I did get Josh Pataglia to go over there and she did give him a gun and a uniform 48:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I would think they would be interested in DNA, but to my understanding, I don't know if any DNA has been taken off of those clothes or maybe they already knew he was a bad guy. 49:06 [SPEAKER_00]: There were letters and his files from supervisors about inappropriate behavior while he was 49:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my biggest uh-huh was the number of women who credibly accused who of sexually abusing them, and his behavior since then. 49:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I think has been, I don't know, with the word as I'm looking for. 49:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, bizarre, but kind of overbearing and, like, kind of a control freak and maybe adamant and not happy that people were saying that about him. 50:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 50:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah. 50:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But I try to stay open and, you know, oh no. 50:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really not doing anything else right now and try to find out. 50:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're if it's going to happen, it's going to be somebody like you or some younger person who's picking up the torch and going with it. 50:21 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, Jim, well, thanks for joining me again. 50:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm super excited that we're talking about this again. 50:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go ahead and pause here and we will resume again here shortly. 50:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 50:44 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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